An ethics question - is using software to track dead cards cheating?

[CurryLover]

I posted yesterday asking if there was software available that would keep track of dead cards. The first reply to the post told me that using software like this is cheating. Personally, I'm not sure whether it does constitute cheating and would like to find out other people's opinions. Comments welcome, but please don't flame me - I'm a very honest person, I just hadn't even considered that this might have ethical considerations.

I'd just like to point out that I have never used this type of software myself, and don't even know whether such software exists.

[badvb750]

This really seems borberline. It will make ppl lazy and give them an edge at the same time. I personally don't like it. I feel keeping tract of dead cards should be done by the player. How will you improve your game? How bad will you suck when you go to the casino and there is no program to tell you if yours or your opponent's hand is dead?

[lstream]

When I first started playing on-line poker I was quite concerned about what I was up against. I sent an e-mail to Empire to clarify what their policies where on bots and card counters. Here is what they said:

<font color="blue">While we do not allow the usage of "bot" type programs, and have several tools in place to detect the usage of such programs; we do not have stringent rules in place for programs such the "odds calculator", which are not actively involved in the hand.

These programs, can only calculate the probabilities of winning the hand, and they need human assistance to be used, unlike regular bot programs, which are independent of human intervention. So it is relatively harmless.

Nevertheless, we do not encourage the use of such programs either. If the player is using such a program and we our system detects it, we will definitely take action against it.

The main aim, is to ensure that players are playing against real players and not up against "Artificial Intelligence". Poker players who are learning will always use tools or people to assist them in learning the game.

To a certain extent that is permitted, but if it reaches a point where the usage of a program is giving the player undue advantage over other players at the table, then we will take necessary action.
</font>

It seems to me that their position on bots is clear, but that they are trying to say that counters/odds calculators are kind of OK, but not really. Not real clear.

I think the safe thing to do is to stay away from using these tools, given such ambiguity. On the other hand, I suspect that I am playing against quite a few people who don't feel the same, and I'm not real keen on being at a disadvantage to them. Maybe I now have a new excuse when I have a losing session. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[BeerMoney]

Curry,

Keeping track of the cards that are out is a skill that many top players will work hard on improving. Taking that skill out of the game just removes one more edge for that skilled player. Why would we want to do that?

Having an odds calculator is another thing which hurts the skilled player who already knows how to do this stuff. If we all had a dollar for everytime some newb comes on here and asks about odds and a flush draw, we'd all be millionaires. What about an odds calculator/ card counter that tells a person whether they should be raising their draw for value.. Some/Most players don't have the slightest idea when to do this.

Curry, you can always come up with a reason to make it seem ok. Like: others are doing it, its no different from pokertracker, you could just write down the cards on a piece of paper, etc... But, my answer still stands, since you are asking this question if whether or not it is unethical/cheating, you've already answered the question.

I trust that you are an honest person and will do the right thing

[badvb750]

[ QUOTE ]
since you are asking this question if whether or not it is unethical/cheating, you've already answered the question.


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Nicely put Beerman.

[CurryLover]

[ QUOTE ]

Curry, you can always come up with a reason to make it seem ok. Like: others are doing it, its no different from pokertracker, you could just write down the cards on a piece of paper, etc... But, my answer still stands, since you are asking this question if whether or not it is unethical/cheating, you've already answered the question.

I trust that you are an honest person and will do the right thing

[/ QUOTE ]

I take your point, but I don't think I have answered my own question. It is possible to argue that it is neither cheating nor unethical. It could be said that it is just a tool to assist you in processing information that is clearly and openly available. Information about players' betting patterns is openly available too and PT/PV/GT are just tools to assist you in processing this information.

I think one point is that these programs allow an online player to do the things he would normally be able to do if playing at a B&amp;M casino. If you are playing at a single table at a casino you can study your opponents and get a line on their play. Pokertracker allows you to mimick this process whilst playing several tables at once. If playing stud in a B&amp;M casino, you can keep track of dead cards relatively easily. A program could do this for you and thus allow you to mimick this process whilst multi-tabling.

Some of the edge that good players have is getting a line on opponents' play, and (in stud) keeping track of the dead cards - and making good decisions based on these observations. The skill is not really in making the observations (ok this is part of it), but rather in using these observations in a skillful way to make good decisions. PT/PV simply give you information - they do not suggest what decisions you should make based on this information. The same would be true with the stud program. Obviously a bot that made suggestions to you based on information would be cheating. But if the decisions are purely your own, simply based on the best openly available information possible, then is this not perfectly ok?

I'm only playing devil's advocate here. To be honest, my feeling now is that the stud software I asked about would be cheating - precisely because it takes some of the skill out of the game. But I'm now thinking that perhaps PT/PV may also be cheating for the same reason. Since one skill is observation of players, and PT/PV do this for you, perhaps they should be banned?

Don't worry, I am an honest person. I will not be using this program (if it even exists!). Mainly this is for two reasons:
1. Nobody has argued convincingly yet that it is not cheating, therefore I will assume it is at least unethical until convinced otherwise.
2. I don't really play stud much anyway, although I have been playing a little bit recently. The original post was more of a theoretical question.

[BeerMoney]

Curry,

nice post.

I said "I trust that you are an honest person, and trust you will do the right thing." Two things about that.. 1.) I don't like the way it sounds, it sounds preachy or whatever. 2.) I meant it when I said I thought you were an honest person. The fact that you take time to think about it means that you aren't going to say "screw it, I don't care what they think", and do whatever you want. Other dishonest people who would use these things wouldn't bother to ask the people on this forum.

Like you said, no one is coming out and saying its ok. If there are people on here using it, they aren't saying anything I think because they feel deep down that it isn't the right thing to do.

I posted this same question on here over a year ago. I basically said, "if you guys think its ok, then I may use it, if you guys think its wrong, I won't use it." However, after thinking about it for a little while, regardless of what the posts were, the answer was pretty obvious to me.

Look at it this way Curry: I play the game to try and beat the game straight up. I like the money that I make, but that's not my driving force. I like learning the game, I like playing cards. I like the challenge. If I was in it to make money, I could find ways to cheat. Collude with someone, do shady things like unplug my connection when I want to see the river for free, etc.. I don't do those things and won't. When I can't beat the game, I'll have to move down a level, stop playing, or fix the leaks.

[CurryLover]

[ QUOTE ]

Curry,

nice post.

I said "I trust that you are an honest person, and trust you will do the right thing." Two things about that.. 1.) I don't like the way it sounds, it sounds preachy or whatever. 2.) I meant it when I said I thought you were an honest person. The fact that you take time to think about it means that you aren't going to say "screw it, I don't care what they think", and do whatever you want. Other dishonest people who would use these things wouldn't bother to ask the people on this forum.

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Thanks for that.

[FeliciaLee]

I kind of went the opposite way with this one. Why? Maybe because I'm hyped up on drugs after a minor surgery yesterday? Maybe because I'm bored and have nothing better to do [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

When we start out in Stud, we have a choice...to memorize dead cards, or not to memorize dead cards. Those who don't bother will never have a real edge, obviously. Those who do, need to learn how to memorize ranks and suits, and remember them throughout the hand. Sooooo, there are methods, tricks in order to do this.

People memorize in different ways. Eventually they find a technique that works for them, and stick with it. I know that one player who learned to play Stud online opened up Notepad and just quickly typed in dead cards. Like this:

7c
6s
Th
Kd

So fast and easy that eventually he got the feel for memorization and was able to do it without Notepad.

So what is my point? Yeah, Andy says I'm verbose and one often has to skip to the bottom of my posts to get to the point, lol [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

If you are using this program as a means to eventually play live and move away from it, work on your memorization techniques, I say there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. Memorization is memorization, and it takes some longer than others.

If you are using it as a means to an end, never to play live, never to stop "depending" on it to do the work for you, then it's more borderline. In no case would I say it is outright cheating, but it is definitely not quite as ethical as someone who does it the hard way.

So there ya go, my little opinion.

Good luck to you!

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
www.felicialee.net

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]

Keeping track of the cards that are out is a skill that many top players will work hard on improving. Taking that skill out of the game just removes one more edge for that skilled player. Why would we want to do that?



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Couldnt have said it better.