A4o hits TPNK, Do you like my line?

JoshuaD · #1 03-12-2005, 02:21 AM

Both villians are typical fish. UTG is 45/3/0.5, Button is 60/0/0.3.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 5 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Button folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Do you like the stop and go?

einbert · #2 03-12-2005, 02:27 AM

I don't really see why you are stop and going, on this drawless board I see this as a way ahead/way behind situation and c/c c/c b/f probably. I might check the flop and see if I can raise a late position bet though. I also think that check/calling the river is a viable line here.

JoshuaD · #3 03-12-2005, 02:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really see why you are stop and going on this drawless board I see this as a way ahead/way behind situation and c/c c/c b/f probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can do better than that line this hand, specifically by potentially saving a hopeless river call.

[ QUOTE ]
I might check the flop and see if I can raise a late position bet though. I also think that check/calling the river is a viable line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're both really loose and really passive. The flop bet is a value bet. They're gonna call with any pair here, or any sort of cockeyed draw they see.

When the guy raises me I think I'm probably behind, and I bet the turn to possibly save myself a BB (if he raises like he did I know i'm way behind, possibly drawing dead, and can fold).

If he just calls my turn bet I'm bet/folding the river.

einbert · #4 03-12-2005, 02:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]

When the guy raises me I think I'm probably behind,

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you check to him and he bets? Can't you pretty much conclude you're behind then and fold, this would save you an extra BB. I agree you're probably behind after he raises the flop, so why would you put in that BB on the turn?

[ QUOTE ]
specifically by potentially saving a hopeless river call.

[/ QUOTE ]
But I wasn't saying for you to call on the river at all, I was saying to bet and fold to a raise.

JoshuaD · #5 03-12-2005, 02:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]

What if you check to him and he bets? Can't you pretty much conclude you're behind then and fold, this would save you an extra BB. I agree you're probably behind after he raises the flop, so why would you put in that BB on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/fold is too passive with TP here IMO. I think check/call the turn and river is more +EV than check/fold on the turn.
If that's true, I (think) I've shown that my line is better than this way ahead/way behind line, making it better than check/fold.

Fish do some crazy wierd stuff, and if he was screwing around with that flop raise, a bet here will bring him in line. He might just call with a hand that's beating me (a hand like AT), but if he does, then it's just as if I had check/called, but I gave myself the chance to gain some valuable information that could save me a BB.

Edit: I just re-read your posts, I misunderstood what you said. If you're advocating a check/call on the flop, a check/call on the turn, and a bet/fold on the river, then I think your line is much too passive. I've got a hand that's strong and I've got two fish that are going to pay me with all sorts of junk. Betting out here on the flop is definitely better than checking.

einbert · #6 03-12-2005, 02:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Betting out here on the flop is definitely better than checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah looking back on it I have to agree with you on that. Once you get raised though I have no problem going into calldown mode, or check/folding the turn.

Anyway I'm sure some others will carve up how awful my analysis of this hand was, for now I'm going to sleep. I'll think about this hand and probably post my finished thoughts on the hand when I wake up.

I do think this hand deserves further discussion, but for some reason I have a hunch it won't get much, if any more attention.

JoshuaD · #7 03-12-2005, 06:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I do think this hand deserves further discussion, but for some reason I have a hunch it won't get much, if any more attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

You and me both buddy. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Nick C · #8 03-12-2005, 11:11 AM

I like the flop bet.

The raise from the LP-P UTG player is a concern. A high percentage of the time he's going to have a better ace or aces up. (There just aren't that many ways this flop could have hit him.) I think sometimes he'll have a hand like TT, though. But I don't think you'll be ahead all that often.

I think check-folding the turn is an option. Bet-folding is a more expensive way to lose to lose to a hand like A3 (and you'd actually want to stay in against that hand). Also, the stop-n-go will sometimes just bully UTG into calling down with a better ace.

I think I like bet-folding the turn better than check-calling the turn and river, against this opponent, though.

Elizabeth · #9 03-12-2005, 12:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What if you check to him and he bets? Can't you pretty much conclude you're behind then and fold, this would save you an extra BB. I agree you're probably behind after he raises the flop, so why would you put in that BB on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/fold is too passive with TP here IMO. I think check/call the turn and river is more +EV than check/fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about checking in order to see who bets and who calls? If the bet comes from the button I think a checkraise is in order. If the bet comes from UTG, and the button calls, you can call and bet/fold the turn.

I think this gets you the same information, except you save a flop bet.

PotatoStew · #10 03-12-2005, 12:14 PM

I personally don't think I like the line. The pot on the flop is only 3.5 SB ... this line commits you to potentially investing 2 BB to try to win a very small pot. You say you have a very strong hand, but when most fish will limp in with any Ace, I'm not sure how strong it is.

In these spots, I personally like checking -- often it's checked around, and then I can pretty confidently bet the turn knowing I'm probably ahead. If the flop is bet by someone else, I'd have to make a judgement based on who did the betting, but the pot is so small I can't imagine it would be a huge mistake to fold in most circumstances.

Maybe this is too weak -- if so, I'm sure someone will point that out.