confused with JJ, a couple questionable plays

Elizabeth · #1 03-09-2005, 07:56 AM

I played this hand like a sour note. I had reasons for each street but the play doesn't fit together. I'm aggressive, I'm timid, I'm fancy. Something is wrong. Where could I have done something differently?

Players here are MP2, a very loose player. He's not straightforwardly aggressive all the time, but I've noticed that he gets aggressive later in the hand. It's more that he's addicted to FPS than he's a maniac.

BB seems decent (16%/8% preflop/preflopraise). I have not seen anything weird from him yet.

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls,
1 fold, MP2 calls, 1
fold, CO calls, Hero raises, SB
calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

7 players to the flop for 2 bets, [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Flop: (14 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds,
MP2 raises, CO folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB
calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (13 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero
raises

I played this hand with 2 ideas. I am not sure how correct they are, but this is the reasoning for my plays:
- There is a chance I am ahead but I'm probably behind
- I my 4 gutshot outs are probably clean, and I might have 2 set outs as well. This hand is a decent draw in a pot this size.

rmarotti · #2 03-09-2005, 11:27 AM

And yet you raise the river after missing? I don't get it.

Elizabeth · #3 03-09-2005, 12:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And yet you raise the river after missing? I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking:
I have a chance of beating the loose aggressive player, and the pot is large enough that I should call.

Yet, my hand cannot stand an overcall. If there's a chance that the BB has a better hand but won't call 2 cold, then I have to raise. A weak queen, or any queen, might have a hard time calling 2 cold here. BB seemed like a tight player.

To be honest, I had just read the section of SSH applying to this, so the situation jumped out at me.

pyroponic · #4 03-09-2005, 12:30 PM

Probably 3-bet the flop, bet the turn, take a free showdown (if everything works out like I want it to.

Elizabeth · #5 03-09-2005, 12:37 PM

It's also because of this thinking below that I have got myself really questioning my turn play:

I might be ahead, raise!
I am probably behind, but I have 4-6 outs, call!

so I am confused.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And yet you raise the river after missing? I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking:
I have a chance of beating the loose aggressive player, and the pot is large enough that I should call.

Yet, my hand cannot stand an overcall. If there's a chance that the BB has a better hand but won't call 2 cold, then I have to raise. A weak queen, or any queen, might have a hard time calling 2 cold here. BB seemed like a tight player.

To be honest, I had just read the section of SSH applying to this, so the situation jumped out at me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noodles · #6 03-09-2005, 12:37 PM

i think you should have raisd the flop,try and knock out the BB,you may get a free turn card if you want it,i dont see much point in just calling,
as regards the river raise are you saying you think you may get the BB to fold a better hand,doubtful in a pot that size

pyroponic · #7 03-09-2005, 12:45 PM

I think raising the turn is possible chip spewing, better to figure out where you stand on the flop. (Why raise the turn with middle w/ 4-outs)? Unless you think you can fold out MP, you're probably behind on the turn.

MarkD · #8 03-09-2005, 12:54 PM

3-betting the flop seems like the play here. Calling with the intention of raising the turn on a 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,T, or J also seems like an ok way to play this hand.

Unless I improve I want to see a showdown and I want to invest no more than about 2.5BB's. Both of the above lines should accomplish this.

edit: I realize that the second line you invest 3BB's, but it's still a fine way to play the hand. I should also say that of the two lines I do pre-fer the flop 3-bet line. Also, to the poster that said calling the flop is wrong take a look at the size of the pot and the number of outs hero has. Hero could simply become a passive callign station and call the flop and turn and fold the river without improving and he wouldn't be making too large of a mistake - but I feel that this hand is worth getting agressive in.

chief444 · #9 03-09-2005, 12:57 PM

BB's play is confusing to me. The flop bet from a solid player into a big field including a pf raiser in late position to me looks like a big made hand only because there aren't really any draws I can think of here that are value betting. But then he slows down. You do seem to have just enough to call with the whole way. I'm not sure how much I like the river raise. But I will give you this...I think BB's most likely hands are QT or QJ and the raise could work.

edit...And I agree that a flop 3-bet would be best here.

Noodles · #10 03-09-2005, 12:59 PM

where did i say to raise the turn?
i said raise the flop