AKs whiffed the flop, proper to clean up outs?

Douper · #1 03-09-2005, 03:09 AM

Just made the jump to 2/4 this weekend after a long stint at 1/2 short, so hopefully it didn't make me too aggressive. I didn't get the chance to often to make this play in 1/2 full.

I was only at the table for 2 spins, All the players in the hand were slightly loose, and bet when they hit TP. SB was playing any Ace, and I'd seen the BB just cold-call preflop with QQ.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises

mantasm · #2 03-09-2005, 04:39 AM

You're almost certainly not cleaning up outs here with your raise. It's unlikely that someone has A6 or K6, and even if they do they're probably not folding. I would probably raise here because the pot is pretty big and there's a chance I have the best hand. I would expect the BB to have a small pocket pair or a 6 here, though. The raise also gives you a chance to take a free card on the turn, which I would do if I didn't hit an A or K.

hate · #3 03-09-2005, 05:58 AM

With a board like this, I think the most likely hands from the BB are a 6 or a pp greater than the 6, so unless he's an idiot, I'd also take the free card on the turn. I've occasionally called down with A-high, but it really depends on the player.

Moozh · #4 03-09-2005, 08:27 AM

Often in this situation you're raising for value, not to clean up outs. Discounting the 2s, a six or a low pocket pair is possible, still, I almost always raise here unless I have a strong read on whoever bet out. As an added bonus, this raise should usually buy you the button. If it doesn't, time to reevaluate.

On the turn, I actually like to bet as well. AK against a paired-raggedy board is often worth a showdown, thus I'd prefer to bet the turn and take the free showdown on the river unimproved. This also gives you the benefit of being able to bet if you do hit your pair.

If you're bet into on the turn, I'll usually let it go unimproved. The downside of betting the turn is that if you're check-raised you probably have to call. Then even if you do hit your pair you can't be certain it's good, so you can only call the river. That's a good argument to check the turn, and I'd like to hear what other people would do in this spot.

Douper · #5 03-09-2005, 08:38 AM

thanks guys, I felt like the raise was correct, but now I see why it's correct [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't off my rocker with that raise.

The plan after the raise is to call a 3bet and fold the turn unimproved?

Moozh · #6 03-09-2005, 08:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The plan after the raise is to call a 3bet and fold the turn unimproved?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good to me.

PokerBob · #7 03-09-2005, 11:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Just made the jump to 2/4 this weekend after a long stint at 1/2 short, so hopefully it didn't make me too aggressive. I didn't get the chance to often to make this play in 1/2 full.

I was only at the table for 2 spins, All the players in the hand were slightly loose, and bet when they hit TP. SB was playing any Ace, and I'd seen the BB just cold-call preflop with QQ.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard IMO.

rmarotti · #8 03-09-2005, 11:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The downside of betting the turn is that if you're check-raised you probably have to call. Then even if you do hit your pair you can't be certain it's good, so you can only call the river. That's a good argument to check the turn, and I'd like to hear what other people would do in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whaaa? What hand is villain c/raising the turn with (after you raised him on the flop) that you're drawing very live against? A c/raise on the turn here is an easy laydown if you're gonna bet it in the first place.

Moozh · #9 03-09-2005, 08:00 PM

That's a good point, and yet another reason why I think betting the turn is better.