99 on the button...

smiely · #1 03-08-2005, 12:56 AM

No particular reads on anyone - seemed to be a general crowd of weak, loose-passive .50/1 players

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.50. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Ok, so I had an overpair, but an easily dominated one, should an overcard come on the turn or river. Raising isn't going to accomplish anything except build the pot for more weak draws to call on the turn, so I was waiting to see the turn card and to hopefully get the opportunity to raise on a non-scary card to knock some people out.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, CO folds, Hero...

How scary is this turn card? It's low, doesn't put much of anything in the way of straights on the board, gives me a flush draw, BUT puts 3 to a flush on the board for someone who may have a stronger made flush, or a higher heart. What should my course of action be?

gvibes · #2 03-08-2005, 01:04 AM

I don't know what you should do, but why didn't your raise the flop?

ArturiusX · #3 03-08-2005, 01:06 AM

Raise this flop. If your so worried about the weakness of your hand, calling is easily the worst option.

topspin · #4 03-08-2005, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise this flop [...] calling is easily the worst option.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There is no way hero can protect given the relative position of the flop raiser -- no one is folding for one more bet here, and all that we accomplish is to trap the field for 2 bets.

This is a classic spot where waiting for the turn is a good idea. If a bad card (flush, overcard) falls and there is significant action, we can let go of our hand. If a blank falls, we can raise the turn and earn 2BB when our equity is much higher.

Note that this is right out of the "two overpair hands" section of SSH, except there hero has TT on a 2-flush undercard board instead of 99 as here.

ArturiusX · #5 03-08-2005, 01:17 AM

You actually think we're scaring people on the turn by just calling? The pots 8 BB and juicey enough.

topspin · #6 03-08-2005, 01:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise this flop. If your so worried about the weakness of your hand, calling is easily the worst option.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You actually think we're scaring people on the turn by just calling? The pots 8 BB and juicey enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused. Are you talking about the flop or the turn? I advocated raising on a turn blank, not calling ...

EDIT: Note that I'm advocating raising a turn blank for value, not for protection. There is no way you can protect on either street if UTG is the bettor.

Entity · #7 03-08-2005, 01:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise this flop [...] calling is easily the worst option.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There is no way hero can protect given the relative position of the flop raiser -- no one is folding for one more bet here, and all that we accomplish is to trap the field for 2 bets.

This is a classic spot where waiting for the turn is a good idea. If a bad card (flush, overcard) falls and there is significant action, we can let go of our hand. If a blank falls, we can raise the turn and earn 2BB when our equity is much higher.

Note that this is right out of the "two overpair hands" section of SSH, except there hero has TT on a 2-flush undercard board instead of 99 as here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post. Turn play is pretty tough.

I'm raising the turn but I don't yet know what the hell I'm doing if I get 3-bet.

Rob

btspider · #8 03-08-2005, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm raising the turn with the intention of putting no more money in the pot. I'm not sure though.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

i think we have to raise the turn. folding the J and T of flushes would be nice. folding the Q of flushes may be possible if it faces 2 bets. (added: along with all the overcards of course)

the problem is i'm not sure we can fold to a 3-bet (HU).
if he has a flush, we have 4 outs.
if he has 6x, we might have a boatload of flush outs to go with our two 9 outs.

topspin · #9 03-08-2005, 01:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Turn play is pretty tough.

I think I'm raising the turn with the intention of putting no more money in the pot. I'm not sure though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what the best move is on the turn either, which is why I didn't sound off on it. I know I don't like a call here, since if we think we're ahead we have a perfect opportunity to raise here and protect our hand. If we're behind we're pretty screwed and don't have odds to draw.

You're advocating a raise/fold here? If so, assuming you just get called, why wouldn't you bet the river? It feels like most better hands would 3-bet the turn rather than getting fancy by flat-calling and check-raising the river.

Entity · #10 03-08-2005, 01:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm raising the turn with the intention of putting no more money in the pot. I'm not sure though.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

i think we have to raise the turn. folding the J and T of flushes would be nice. folding the Q of flushes may be possible if it faces 2 bets.

the problem is i'm not sure we can fold to a 3-bet (HU).
if he has a flush, we have 4 outs.
if he has 6x, we might have a boatload of flush outs to go with our two 9 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I think he just has something like top pair, which is why I said I'm not sure it's the last bet I put into the pot. If he calls my raise I bet the river. So I lied about it being the last bet I put in to the pot.

I doubt I get 3-bet by a rando 6 very often, but I guess it'll happen sometimes, so I think we're looking at around 4 outs when we get 3-bet, so calling is correct. Without knowing what our outs are, that puts us in a tough place on the river.

It's a tricky turn, but I do think raising is the best play. I'd have to sit and think for a bit to figure out what's best when 3-bet.

Rob