Does anyone lay this down here?

tiger7210 · #1 03-03-2005, 10:51 PM

No read on villain in hand here as I haven't really see him play too many pots since I've been moved to this table 2 orbits ago. Big stack in the BB was very loose using his stack to miniraise with any 2 and calling all ins with any 2 suited or connectors. MP opens with miniraise which I wasn't sure was weakness or trying to induce the Big stack. Anyway on to the hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

CO (t4895)
Button (t5820)
Hero (t7465)
BB (t18358)
UTG (t6165)
UTG+1 (t4735)
MP1 (t4145)
MP2 (t9415)
MP3 (t5125)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 raises to t400, 2 folds, Button calls t400, Hero calls t300, BB calls t200.

Flop: (t1500) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)

Final Pot: t1500

I checked the flop with the intent on checkraising which I think was a mistake here and left me in a very uncomfortable position when villain made a pot sized bet. What's your move here at this point?

I'll post my actions later.

Noel Montgomery · #2 03-03-2005, 10:57 PM

Who's the villain? The big blind?

jgorham · #3 03-03-2005, 10:58 PM

I fold this hand preflop, because no matter what flops, when the raiser puts in a big bet you are in a bit of a bind. If you had a read that MP2 was on a steal, then a reraise all-in would be your other option. But I really think this hand is too weak to call and play out of position.

That said, I think you have to bet this on the flop, but be willing to fold to a substantial reraise. I know it sucks, but that is why you probably shouldn't get involved with this hand in the first place. I would be more inclined to call here with 7c8c than Ac8c.

jgorham · #4 03-03-2005, 11:04 PM

I guess I didn't really answer your question though: I think you can judge a lot about the bettor's hand by the size of the bet. Against a pot sized bet I would fold. If it were a bit smaller than I would call and reevaluate on the turn.

tiger7210 · #5 03-03-2005, 11:23 PM

Sorry villain in the hand is original raiser in MP2.

kuro · #6 03-03-2005, 11:36 PM

I'd push. If you're out kicked you're out kicked. Villain could just as easily have a flush draw, straight draw, kings queens, jacks, KT/QT/JT, or a smaller Axs. I don't like calling him down because you let villain make their flush or straight for cheap.

If you're going to play Axs multiway I think you just accept that you're going to go broke on flops like this without a super read or really deep stack if you're out kicked.

kuro · #7 03-03-2005, 11:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can judge a lot about the bettor's hand by the size of the bet. Against a pot sized bet I would fold. If it were a bit smaller than I would call and reevaluate on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really bad advice. Bet size is very villain specific. You can't be making decisions on if your hand is good based on if an unknown villain bets the pot or 1/2 the pot or 2/3 the pot.

Jdanz · #8 03-04-2005, 12:45 AM

i think you could say something about the size of the bet ( i.e. not given anything else pot size bet tells me he doesn't want a call)

tiger7210 · #9 03-04-2005, 01:46 AM

I checked the flop with the intent of checkraising. Villain in MP2 makes a bet of 2000 chips overbetting the pot on the flop. My thinking here is 2000 chips doesn't really pot commit him and it looks like he doesn't want a call. Is he protecting his Ace against a flush or an inside straight draw? Maybe a flush draw or inside straight draw trying to buy the pot.

adanthar · #10 03-04-2005, 01:54 AM

I fold PF.

Because you didn't, you have a problem. Betting out is tricky - you may get away with it on Stars (since a ten doesn't raise all in like it would on Party half the time) but it's not spectacular and a lot of times you'll wind up folding the best hand, plus only get real action when you're beat. But checkraising commits a good chunk of your stack and it's not all that good, either.

So you check, and the guy overbets the pot. This is either extreme strength or extreme weakness and you don't know which. You have two options:

1)Fold and preserve your stack (always valid)
2)Call with the intention of reevaluating on the turn.

Checkraising is now worthless and the option has disappeared. Calling...I'll let others elaborate.

(Hint: he's not betting kings again on the turn and you have as many as 14 outs.)