Good aggression, or hopeless chip-spew?

PotatoStew · #1 03-02-2005, 01:04 AM

This pot was rather large due to the number of people in, and the preflop raise. I was trying my best to increase my chances of winning it. Was that appropriate given the situation, or did I misapply this concept?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (21 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB 3-bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (15 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (18 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 20 BB

Fnord · #2 03-02-2005, 01:19 AM

I've been folding here pre-flop. I tend to play QJo from the Button, CO, CO+1 and really want to be opening with a raise. You're certainly getting the worst of it pre-flop.

Post-flop I like the flop play, turn bet is a continuation bet from the flop however I think you can check behind on this river.

Harv72b · #3 03-02-2005, 01:35 AM

I think you trapped yourself into losing a good deal more chips than you should've. You have to realize that the size of the pot works both ways, and nobody is going to fold even a weak A here for a single bet (or for two bets on the flop).

The PF question aside (I generally fold QJo from MP as well, but I think a case can be made for calling behind 2 limpers), I think a call on the flop is better than a raise. You definitely have odds to chase your 5-outer, even if some of those outs may be tainted, and as I said, the pot is too big to chase anyone with a better hand out. Additionally, very few players will PFR out of the BB with a hand worse than JJ/AQs against this large a field; unless you know that BB is a maniac, I'd say it's almost certain that he has a better hand than your pair of jacks, and will call down even if the third [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] comes (which may make MP1's hand). At any rate, once BB 3-bets the flop, you can be certain that you're behind.

But now you're almost forced to bluff at the flush on the turn, which of course BB calls. I would definitely check behind on the river...if BB didn't fold for 1 on the turn, he's certainly not going to fold getting 19:1 on the river.

sexypanda · #4 03-02-2005, 01:37 AM

To me, the BB's really representing top pair here. Call me weak-tight but i check the turn and maybe call a bet on the river.

Edit: bet the turn if you think you can get him to fold top pair, but then check through on the river

ErrantNight · #5 03-02-2005, 01:41 AM

this preflop call is fine. dare i say... standard.

but i'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by your flop raise. you almost certainly, given the preflop action, do not have the best hand, and your Q outs may put straight draws on the table, not to mention you have the wrong red Q.

the pot is ginormous at this point... but you're still drawing. you're not going to get a better hand to fold, so you need to improve. you have the odds to draw to pretty much anything, and those long shot draws while perhaps cutting into your equity a little bit, conceivably will help you make it up. by raising you're building the pot and helping force people out for your opponent who has a better hand, almost certainly.

check behind on the river. headsup you could take another shot, but you're not getting this huge pot handed to you on a platter.

ams4 · #6 03-02-2005, 01:50 AM

I guess this isn't that relevant but why play QJ offsuit in this position? I hate the pre-flop call so much. Your QJ is a loser in this multiway pot long term. What is the purpose of limping with it in MP????

PotatoStew · #7 03-02-2005, 01:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but i'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by your flop raise. you almost certainly, given the preflop action, do not have the best hand, and your Q outs may put straight draws on the table

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I raised, to try to clean up outs. If I can get people to fold, my Q outs may be a bit cleaner. A least, that's what I was thinking at the time.

[ QUOTE ]

you're not getting this huge pot handed to you on a platter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed... but then I almost certainly wouldn't be getting it by just calling along, IMO. Though I do see the point about checking behind on the river. If he's been around that long, he's not going to fold a better hand.

chief444 · #8 03-02-2005, 02:02 AM

I'd fold preflop.

I'd probably just call the flop bet.

With the line you took the turn bet is fine but there's really no value I can see in a river bet.

ErrantNight · #9 03-02-2005, 02:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but i'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by your flop raise. you almost certainly, given the preflop action, do not have the best hand, and your Q outs may put straight draws on the table

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I raised, to try to clean up outs. If I can get people to fold, my Q outs may be a bit cleaner. A least, that's what I was thinking at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's like advocating raising AK when you miss the flop and someone bets in front of you with a large field and you've got a couple callers in between. YOU are drawing. if someone happens to have Qx and they've hit their x and you hit your queen... you've now got a better two pair then them. more likely additional callers are helping better your odds while you draw. you say you're not going to win this hand by calling... well you're not going to win this hand by betting, either. you need to improve to win, and you'd prefer to have the odds to chase. every time you raise with less than sufficient equity you're hurting yourself, not helping.

[ QUOTE ]

you're not getting this huge pot handed to you on a platter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed... but then I almost certainly wouldn't be getting it by just calling along, IMO. Though I do see the point about checking behind on the river. If he's been around that long, he's not going to fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

how do you intend to win this hand unimproved against an A? pray that they don't have a heart, everyone else with hearts folds, and two more hearts come on the turn and river and convince mr. has-an-ace that you do? not to mention any of the other myriad of hands you could be behind to...

ErrantNight · #10 03-02-2005, 02:07 AM

because conceivably you're limping against a bunch of people you can outplay postflop... and make it a winner long term.