$11 bb hand situation

[rybones]

This is not a specific hand, but rather a situation I have had a few time in the last couple of weeks.

Level 1 $11 party sng 9 handed. You are in the bb with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. there are 3 limpers, the sb completes and you check. The flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

I check. What is your action and why?

Assume you also check and the guy in ep bets t15, the rest fold. What is your action and why?

Alternatively, what if you check, the rest of the field checks and the turn is a harmless 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Now what is your action and why?

Beyond this what are some variables that would make you more or less agressive? i.e. what if your hand was A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? do you play those situations the same? you have a few more outs if you are beat? What if you had K,9 on a K high flop? lots of hypotheticals I know, but I was just currious as to your thoughts.

Ryan

[LaggyLou]

I don't check. I bet ~50, because I likely have the best hand and I want to win it right here. If raised I'm done. If called I reevaluate on the turn.

If I misclick and check and it gets checked through I'll bet 50 on the 7c, with the same plan, for the same reasons.

I play ATs the same (obviously I feel better about a call or raise. also not to be a nit but it can't be ATd Ad is on board). The "few more outs" (i.e., the BD draws) are insignificant in this situation.

The K9 hypo is entirely different because I fear being behind a lot more. Lots of folks will limp with KQ, KJ or KT. Many of those same folks will raise with AK, AQ and even AJ and AT. Thus with A9 I feel that I am more likely ahead v. 4 limpers than with K9. With K9 I probably check and see what happens -- most likely fold to any reasonable bet. I don't want to go to war on level 1 with TP bad kicker.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a specific hand, but rather a situation I have had a few time in the last couple of weeks.

Level 1 $11 party sng 9 handed. You are in the bb with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. there are 3 limpers, the sb completes and you check. The flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

I check. What is your action and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I check because I have a crap hand with crap position.

[ QUOTE ]
Assume you also check and the guy in ep bets t15, the rest fold. What is your action and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I call because I am likely to be ahead. I don't raise because I still have a crap hand in crap position.

[ QUOTE ]
Alternatively, what if you check, the rest of the field checks and the turn is a harmless 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Now what is your action and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I check, because I have a crap hand in crap position.

[ QUOTE ]
Beyond this what are some variables that would make you more or less agressive? i.e. what if your hand was A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? do you play those situations the same? you have a few more outs if you are beat? What if you had K,9 on a K high flop? lots of hypotheticals I know, but I was just currious as to your thoughts.

Ryan

[/ QUOTE ]

The guiding principle is that you are out of position in a multi-way pot with a vulnerable made hand. The best way to play these situations is to play for value. This means that you forfeit betting impetus until you are able to collect more information about the hands of your opponents. Then, when you have the information you need, you can call when you rate to be ahead. With this approach you cannot get outplayed unless your opponent is willing to risk too much. He won't usually do this because the pot is small. The pot is small because you made it that way. If he takes a big risk at a small pot, you can fold... so even if your fold is incorrect, the $$ amount of your error is small and can be easily overcome by other value plays from the blinds. This will allow you to lose as little money as possible playing from the blinds. Once you master playing for value from out of position, you can actually make money in the blinds (playing SNGs). SNGs are one of the only poker media where it is possible to play the blinds for a profit. In any fixed-limit game, even the very best pros will lose money from the blinds. But SNGs present a unique situation where the blinds are most significant (expensive) at precisely the point where your opponents are most likely to make mistake playing against the blinds. This allows you an opportunity to play 3 rounds of blinds for a profit that offsets the 5-6 rounds of blinds that you play for a small loss. But the key to this situation is to first learn how to play the blinds in levels 1-4 for as small a loss as possible.

Irieguy

[eagle]

I like this line

"The guiding principle is that you are out of position in a multi-way pot with a vulnerable made hand."

so if I abstract this up one level it says:

The guiding priciple is your position (out, in), the # of opponents ( HU, 2, multi-way) and hand strength ( vulnerable, strong, draw to strong, weak).

Now, if you fill this in for every hand that you play in Levels 1 to 3 your decisions could almost be cut dried.

Do you agree?

Basically,I'm trying to find a pre-decision routine similar to a pre-shot routine in golf. I find that there is no organized approach to my decision making. Maybe some players can assimulate all factors in parallel, but I'll bet most can't.


Any thoughts you have would be of great interest.

thanks

eagle

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I like this line

"The guiding principle is that you are out of position in a multi-way pot with a vulnerable made hand."

so if I abstract this up one level it says:

The guiding priciple is your position (out, in), the # of opponents ( HU, 2, multi-way) and hand strength ( vulnerable, strong, draw to strong, weak).

Now, if you fill this in for every hand that you play in Levels 1 to 3 your decisions could almost be cut dried.

Do you agree?

Basically,I'm trying to find a pre-decision routine similar to a pre-shot routine in golf. I find that there is no organized approach to my decision making. Maybe some players can assimulate all factors in parallel, but I'll bet most can't.


Any thoughts you have would be of great interest.

thanks

eagle

[/ QUOTE ]

Striking a golf ball and playing post flop poker are not analagous. One is difficult, the other is complex.

A preshot routine will not help you play top-pair weak-kicker from the BB in a multi-way pot.

Irieguy