Another Pocket Pair!

Jeoke · #1 03-01-2005, 06:55 PM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB raises, Hero...

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

How do I play a middle pocket pair when a overcard falls on the flop? I am really clueless [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Firefly · #2 03-01-2005, 07:01 PM

call, pray for a 9. For the turn UI.

grayhawk · #3 03-01-2005, 07:02 PM

Call it and check/fold the turn.

MrWookie47 · #4 03-01-2005, 07:19 PM

A read on the opponent would help out a fair bit. Against an otherwise passive opponent, I think you're looking at a K, best case scenario, and possibly a set. I don't think you have the odds to draw to 2 outs then. If you're up against a tricky opponent who might semi-bluff check/raise a flush draw or something like 45 HU (or perhaps pure bluff), you could consider calling it, but even then, I'm not entirely sold. For those who advocate calling and then check/folding UI, that line of thinking assumes we're behind and drawing. I don't think we have decent enough odds to draw, and we should toss in the towel now. Of course, I'm pretty new here, so if I'm wrong, please let me know.

You might want to take a peek at the 88 thread I posted. There's a lot of good commentary in it.

Aaron W. · #5 03-01-2005, 07:52 PM

I don't like call and fold the turn unimproved. You're not getting anything close to proper odds to snag the set, so you're not going to make up the lost money when you do hit (it's heads up - that brings your implied odds down a HUGE amount). That line is basically equivalent to giving money away.

I'm not so fond of just calling unless you're willing to raise the turn regardless of what falls. Otherwise, you'll find yourself very often in another uncomfortable mess, because 80-90% of the time he'll bet into you on the turn.

I'm either going to 3-bet or fold. Against most players, folding seems to be right. If he can be tricky-agressive, I'd 3-bet and bet the turn. If I get check-raised there, I'm done. If he calls, I'm checking behind on the river.

kapw7 · #6 03-01-2005, 08:24 PM

The pot is not big and it is HU. Fold. He's probably raising with 2 pairs or just a K. If he is very aggressive and possibly has just a flush draw (or worse straight draw)or middle-bottom pair, betting on breaking your top pair then you can reraise. But you wouldnt like to get involved in a raising race with an agressive player and it is not likely that you'll get info on his hand or get a free card from such a player.

Dead · #7 03-01-2005, 08:28 PM

Aaron I agree with you completely.

I always wonder why 90% of the advice on here in this spot always says to take one off on the turn, without proper odds.

It just doesn't make sense.

Fold the flop. You're likely drawing to two outs.

About the only benefit you get from folding the turn instead of the flop is psychological with your opponents, that maybe they can't move you off hands as easily on the off chance that they were bluffing.

But it just seems stupid to call here. You took a stab at it, were raised, and unless you're up against an aggressive player I fold it right here.

-Dead

DeadManJay · #8 03-01-2005, 08:31 PM

I forgot who posted in the 88 thread but they mentioned p. 270 of SSH. If you look there is a similiar hand with hero holding better than middle pair in EP in a small pot. SSH recommends check/fold here.

waynethetrain · #9 03-01-2005, 08:35 PM

I would call the raise because he might be betting a flush draw with a smaller pair, but it's close at best. Folding is probably better.

To take it back further though, when you bet 2nd pair (from the pocket) into 3 other players or more, you will often find yourself in the position of either getting raised or having some passive guy that has you beat calling you down all the way. Either way costs you plenty. I have a very difficult time recommending leading out into more than 2 players with a 2nd pair if it's a pocket pair. You are beat often, get outdrawn often, and usually have only 2 outs.

This is a minority view here, but I think it needs to be explored some more. There is a big difference between leading out into several players with 2nd pair when you have 5 outs (2nd pair and an overcard for example) vs. 2 outs in case you are beat.

KingOtter · #10 03-01-2005, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I always wonder why 90% of the advice on here in this spot always says to take one off on the turn, without proper odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for my ignorance... what does 'take one off on the turn' mean?

Just trying to figure out if I'm one of the ones giving that advice.

I do like betting out when a medium pocket pair when it's 2nd pair. And this is the reason... if you're raised, you know you can fold (usually... some raises may mean flush draw, etc). Specially on a check raise.

KO