how bad did i play this?

[lucas9000]

$5/$10 Omaha Hi/Lo

Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: hero ( $249.25 )
Seat 2: x ( $226 )
Seat 3: x ( $259.5 )
Seat 4: x ( $121 )
Seat 5: x ( $162 )
Seat 6: x ( $311.75 )
Seat 7: bystander ( $216.5 )
Seat 8: villain ( $374 )
Seat 9: sb ( $117.5 )
sb posts small blind [$2].
hero posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ Ks Qh Qd As ]
x folds.
x folds.
x folds.
x folds.
x folds.
bystander calls [$5].
villain raises [$10].
sb folds.
hero calls [$5].
bystander calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, 4c, Qs ]
hero checks.
bystander checks.
villain bets [$5].
hero raises [$10].
bystander folds.
villain calls [$5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
hero bets [$10].
villain calls [$10].
** Dealing River ** [ Th ]
hero bets [$10].
villain calls [$10].
hero shows [ Ks, Qh, Qd, As ] three of a kind, queens.
villain shows [ 4s, 3d, 6s, Ac ] two pairs, fours and threes.
villain shows 7,6,4,3,A for low.
hero wins $44.5 from the main pot with three of a kind, queens.
villain wins Lo ($44.5) from the main pot with 7,6,4,3,A.

[FeliciaLee]

Am I reading this correctly? It seems like you played it 100% correctly. What am I missing?

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I reading this correctly? It seems like you played it 100% correctly. What am I missing?

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

so driving the other guy out on the flop with the check-raise was ok? i was concerned about whether i should have kept him in.

[Klak]

i dont think the checkraise is really neccessary. i dont checkraise much in this game unless i have a likely scoop or 3/4.

[FeliciaLee]

See, I didn't even notice the check-raise. I have a hard time reading hand histories, unless they are written up in "story" fashion.

That is why I asked "what am I missing?"

I rarely check-raise either in O8. In loose/passive games, there is hardly ever a need to do it. Maybe if it's HU and I'm against a maniac or calling station and have a virtually unbeatable hand, so I want to get more in the pot, but those times are few and far between.

Sorry I didn't read it more carefully. It's like reading Greek, lol.

Yeah, I'm old.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Phat Mack]

so driving the other guy out on the flop with the check-raise was ok? i was concerned about whether i should have kept him in.

Interesting question.

On the flop, you have top set and a backdoor spade draw. On the other hand, there are two low cards, and the low cards (3c 4h) look straighty.

One way to look at this is that if you win high, you want two callers paying you off. But the contrary view is that your high hand is vulnerable and must be protected, so which view is correct?

On the turn, 7/45 of the deck will make you full or give you quads, solidifying your high. But A's, 2's, 5's, 6's and 7's enable a straight (19/45). Plus, any non-pairing club or heart enables a flush draw.

Is it possible to drive out someone wrapped around the 3c 4h with a check raise on the flop? If you do drive out a hand with a check raise, what kind of hand would it be?

A couple of thoughts: check raising couldn't drive out any real threats to your hand (except the runner-runner flush draws), but getting heads up prevented you from being expensively outplayed on the last two rounds (not to be sneered at when you are playing this hand from up front).

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, 4c, Qs ]
hero checks.
bystander checks.
villain bets [$5].
hero raises [$10].

[/ QUOTE ]

Lucas - As I see it, there are two main considerations.

• (1) You don't want to risk giving a free card.

• (2) You want as many paying opponents as possible

• There is also some chance a bet will win it for you here. But no bet, no chance.

• You'd like to figure out a way to scoop. I think betting directly is the best way. Your hand is not strong enough to slow-play, and a check-raise probably doesn't have as good a chance as a direct bet of getting rid of both opponents.

(1) The danger of a free card should be obvious. You risk having an opponent draw out on you.

(2) I don't think you want to chase just one opponent away because there probably is little or no profit in the hand unless you have at least two opponents. Heads-up, you'll most likely be splitting the pot and merely getting back your own investment.

Obviously you don't want someone hanging around who will draw out on you and take away all or part of your pot, but I think you can more than compensate for the times when this happens by making your opponents pay for the times they don't draw out on you.

You'll make a winning full house or quads 341/990, and your set of queens might win the other 549/990. The 341/990 times you make a full house or quads will be over-kill against just one opponent.

I know there are those who will disagree with me, but I don't like high-only hands when heads-up - especially after a flop with two or three low cards. I like this hand/flop much better with more (paying) opponents.

Check-raising is simply not the best way to accomplish what should be your goals.

Just my opinion.

Buzz




scratch:
21+266+48+6

[Buzz]

Hi Mack - Interesting, thoughtful, thought provoking post.

[ QUOTE ]
getting heads up prevented you from being expensively outplayed on the last two rounds (not to be sneered at when you are playing this hand from up front).

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point.

The problem with playing this high-only hand, especially after a two-low-card flop, is that you'll be putting your own chips at risk with very little chance of winning anything more than half of the small blind.

You can easily lose your whole investment in this pot to a small straight. And for what? To win a dollar?

I don't think you want to play this hand/flop heads-up as much as you want more customers (despite the risks that come with more opponents and the easier time you may have playing against just one opponent).

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Phat Mack]

I don't think you want to play this hand/flop heads-up as much as you want more customers (despite the risks that come with more opponents and the easier time you may have playing against just one opponent).

I agree. There's no reason to drive anybody out, and anybody who would be driven out is dead money. The only way such a play might be justified is if, for some reason, top set was married to his hand and was determined to show it down. Even then, I'd probably want everyone in. I'd usually bet out with this hand on the flop, and then maybe check-call the 7 on 4th street.

[Moneyline]

I would have played the hand the same way. The preflop raiser will often bet here even if he has a hand like A3xx that got counterfeited and a raise might win you the whole pot on the flop. A raise puts pressure on non-nut low draws and may cause them to fold, even though it didn't work this time.