Tough decision for floorman

Greg (FossilMan) · #1 09-12-2002, 10:40 AM

Here was something interesting that happened at the Tuesday night NL HE tourney that I forgot to mention in my post. Actually, it deserves it's own post anyway.

We're down to 14 players, and are already in the money. I think the blinds were 300-600, but it might have been 200-400. UTG goes all-in for about 1500. 1 or 2 folds. Player with about 4000 in his stack goes into a bit of a think, and finally calls. Folded to big blind, who immediately goes all-in for about 3200. Now the action is back to the middle position player.

You're the floorman, and you've been standing here the whole time. Now, while the middle position player is thinking, the girlfriend of the big blind walks up and peeks at her boyfriend's cards. She says "Just in time." A few seconds later the big blind VERY quietly says, across the table and to the thinking player, "Get out".

What, if anything, do you do?

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

The Prince · #2 09-12-2002, 11:03 AM

One player to a hand rule, hand is dead?

But, the BB is all-in anyway. That's why I'm a player and not a referee [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] .

#3 09-12-2002, 02:11 PM

I'm not a floorperson but I would do nothing. HOWEVER, if the BB was not all-in, I would declare his hand dead. The "get out" comment is just part of the game, IMHO, nothing wrong with it.

Ignatius · #4 09-12-2002, 05:39 PM

Maybe it's b/c IANAL or b/c I never played for high stakes, but I don't see any problem here. Where I play, things like that happen all the time and it would occure to nobody to object if you show your card to someone not involed in a hand or if you "ask" ppl. to fold or raise. It's part of the game and as long as you're only give away your own hand (by showing or commenting), why should the floorman intervene?

Generally I think that, except for very big events, a strict to-the-letter interpretation of rules like "one player to a hand" does more harm than good. After all, most ppl. play to have fun and as long as there's no obvious abuse they should be allowed to show off their nice hands to their significant others without being sanctioned. Personally, I wouldn't even have a problem if players would be allowed to flash cards during hands if they feel the urge to do so.

cu

Ignatius

HDPM · #5 09-12-2002, 07:01 PM

In a tournament it is of great value to other players to have someone bust out. BB's action might prevent thinking player from busting. There are probably other reasons why it's bad that I'm not coming up with. Not sure what I'd do as the floor. I don't play a whole lot of tournaments and am no tourn. rules maven. Maybe 20 min penalty. Maybe kill BB's likely AA. Not sure.

Ignatius · #6 09-12-2002, 08:21 PM

> BB's action might prevent thinking player from busting.

Sure, and it should. Just like a good players might pickup some other tell and conclude that he's beaten. This is just as "unfair" as getting a seat to the left of a maniac or to the right of a TOM who always folds his big blind. It is absurd to demand that all players at a table have the right to profit equally of a players mistake at any given time. In the long run, things will even out anyway.

In that very case, all the BB did was talking a player out of the pot who already was halfway in, which in my book is a perfectly legetimate move, just like making up tells or even the reraise itself.

cu

Ignatius

MS Sunshine · #7 09-12-2002, 11:50 PM

I am long-term floorman. I am the closing tournament tournament director for the up coming Reno Hilton's Pot of Gold. If I was there I would ask for the end of the table talk during this hand, but that was all it was. Some clubs in LA have rule that if you say what you have and lie there is no penalty, but a penalty if you tell the truth. Since not even that happened I see where nothing is done.

Lets continue the hand.

MS Sunshine

snowman · #8 09-13-2002, 08:43 AM

clearly with a 3rd player already all in this hand should be ruled dead.
at foxwoods if this was a regular player it was overlooked and the all-in's complaints went unheard.

Greg (FossilMan) · #9 09-13-2002, 11:22 AM

Nobody complained. The floorman was standing there, and acted on his own volition.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Greg (FossilMan) · #10 09-13-2002, 11:30 AM

The floorman said to the player who was talking something like "What are you doing? You can't do that. I have no idea what to do now." After he spoke out, the player yet to act asked him what he meant, and what was going on. The floorman explained that the BB player had been telegraphing his hand, and it wasn't allowed. And again that he didn't know what to do. The player yet to act then asked for a ruling before he made his decision.

Now, Foxwoods almost never kills somebody's hand as a penalty. Even if you turn it face-up to induce a fold, your hand will play, and you will get a penalty of 10 or 20 minutes out of the game. The floorman stated that the hand was going to play, and that the talker was going to get some kind of penalty, but he wasn't sure what. Eventually the player yet to act folded, the BB showed AA, the short-stack all-in player showed Q9 or some such, and AA won. The floorman then told the dealer to deal in the talker, to take his blinds and antes, but to kill his hand each time it was his turn to act.

The floorman then walked away. A few hands later he came back and announced that the talker was being removed from the tournament for collusion. While he was away the floorman had talked to the shift manager, the highest executive in the poker room on site, and that was their joint decision.

I thought it was a bit too much. I would've given him a time penalty, but not kicked him out.

Later, after I had collected my money for first place, I learned that the floorman had called Mike Ward, the Tournament Director for Foxwoods, at his home. Mike had told him to offer the player the money for 14th place, the number of players remaining when he was kicked out of the tourney. I don't know what else, if anything, has happened since.

I freely admit there is a HUGE gray area here. I like to talk during the hand. I like to ask my opponent "Do you have a pair?" when I'm thinking about whether to call or not. I do it to induce tells, not because I'm looking to collude with the guy. However, I know most of these guys, and they know me, so even doing this stuff with no bad intent might look bad to the new guy who's sitting there, wondering if the locals are helping each other, and thereby hurting him indirectly. I'm really not sure what the best way to handle this stuff is going to be, moving forward.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)