Passive Play with a Premium Pocket Pair

Zele · #1 02-24-2005, 04:18 PM

Plan was to see the SD if UTG folded behind me on turn.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Lost Wages · #2 02-24-2005, 04:36 PM

No danger in checking the turn as it's highly unlikely that a free card will hurt. Plus, you stand a better chance of having the best hand when you check and call than when you bet and are called. Also, since you relinquished the lead, UTG may come out betting with a good hand for fear it will check through. If UTG bets and the button calls then I think you would have to strongly consider folding.

Really tough river, especially when it looks like you are going to be overcalled by a weak ace or maybe king. If the button had JJ/TT/99 you would expect him to check through, but opponents don't always play correctly so...I dunno.

Lost Wages

MAxx · #3 02-24-2005, 04:39 PM

this is just idle thought, but i dont really like the turn check/call if you plan on folding on a blank river.

to me, i am inclined to bet/fold turn or check/fold turn.

- you dont have odds to draw to a Q... so i would only call turn if i intended on showing down.

i dont really like going halfway... what good does that do you? i suppose the argument is that guy may decide do check down river after getting callers on turn if he doesnt have goods, but will proceed to bet river when he has you beat... but he will also bet river sometimes when he doesnt have you beat (or when his diamond draw misses).

Grisgra · #4 02-24-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is just idle thought, but i dont really like the turn check/call if you plan on folding on a blank river.

to me, i am inclined to bet/fold turn or check/fold turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel the same way. I 3-bet, ace hit, I get two callers, I think check-folding is probably the way to go here. But on the off chance that there's some guy with TT or JJ hanging on, I think betting is best.

I guess, don't show weakness when you think you're weak, unless you're planning on just folding, or you think that your opponent is Bluffy McBluff and you plan on showing down.

spider · #5 02-24-2005, 04:56 PM

I pretty much agree with maxx & grisgra, I don't like check-call on turn if you're going to fold river. Since it costs you a bet anyway, it seems you're better off leading the turn and folding to a raise.

Although, most times the net result either way is you pay a bet on the turn and fold the river. Still, the bad thing about check-call turn is you are really asking one of your opponents to push you off the best hand.

This is also assuming your opponents are capable of a loose flop call here. If not, I guess you are best off with check-fold on the turn. Considering that flop and the fact that you 3-bet pre-flop, you just hate getting two calls on the flop there.

Lost Wages · #6 02-24-2005, 04:58 PM

In general, of course, I agree that calling the turn and folding the river is a bad play. But in this case, he said his plan was to showdown if UTG folded the turn and fold the river if UTG overcalled the turn. I think that there is some merit to this plan. A bettor can be bluffing but a caller can't. There really is no draw unless he called the flop with nothing and lucked into a flush draw.

Checking also gives you the option of escaping the turn for free if there is a bet/raise or bet/call. If you bet the turn and get called, then what?

Lost Wages

MAxx · #7 02-24-2005, 05:15 PM

thanks for explaining the plan. i understand it now and agree it has merit. not sure i like it still.

makes you wonder what utg would overcall on turn but fold river? i admit hindsite is influencing here.

do you think it would be fair say that it may be best to take z's line when you trust your read in what UTG's turn overcall means? if he is a bad player, it may not mean squat or infact swing the decision to call another on river.

or said another way reads would help on either or both villains. but doesnt it always.

oh and if i choose to lead turn and get called, i don't like it much. i would probably check river and see where the bet comes from, and if it comes. and i would likely lean towards calling it.

i think a good % of the time i am check/folding turn.

esspo · #8 02-24-2005, 05:28 PM

Standard call the river or fold the turn. You don't have the outs to justify a call. Actually, you should have raised the river (after calling the turn) to fold out UTG. After you folded, I am sure you didn't like it when UTG folded to the river bet as well.

I think its close between betting the turn and check/folding the river and check/folding the turn.