KK wait for turn?

akira · #1 02-24-2005, 01:09 AM

Comments?

BTW, I'll have to post results on this one, pretty "interesting" play by everyone..

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 (poster) calls, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (19.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (21.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 21.75 BB

DemonDeac · #2 02-24-2005, 01:50 AM

im raising the flop with all the callers in front of me

damaniac · #3 02-24-2005, 02:05 AM

I don't think there's much to wait for in terms of hand protection. You have terrible position relative to the bettor to protect your hand. The problem is, even if you raise and BB or the PFR re-raise, everyone in the middle still has odds to call against your overpair.

The problem is, if you wait for the turn and the BB bets again and we have the same pattern of callers, you again can't protect (but pretty much have to raise any blank for value at this point). Do we think either that UTG or someone else may come alive and provide us with some protection as he did here very often or do we think that our equity may be thin enough on the flop that waiting to raise a blank on the turn is more +EV than simply raising the flop?

wrto4556 · #4 02-24-2005, 02:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there's much to wait for in terms of hand protection. You have terrible position relative to the bettor to protect your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was thinking. If you were closer to the original bettor, waiting for the turn might work, but here you have a bunch of people in the middle, you're not "protecting" your hand.

I raise the flop.

Yeknom58 · #5 02-24-2005, 02:26 AM

Raise the flop.

With all the callers on the flop there is too much value, you have to raise.

LinusKS · #6 02-24-2005, 02:29 AM

Why not raise the flop?

If you think you win this pot more than one out of six times, why not collect the extra bets?

Also, why not bet the river?

The only hands that 6 improves are 66, and someone playing a gutshot. I suppose either is possible, but they don't seem very likely.

bernie · #7 02-24-2005, 03:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
you're not "protecting" your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're sure blowing their effective odds though making them pay 2 biggies on the turn. Where your edge is quite a bit more.

b

damaniac · #8 02-24-2005, 03:49 AM

That's what I was trying to think out at the end. So we're not getting anyone to fold for another bet or two on the flop regardless, and while we certainly get great value from it, we get more value on the turn both because the odds are worse for draws and because we are getting double-sized bets. In situations such as this, is this more +EV than just raising the flop?

cold_cash · #9 02-24-2005, 03:49 AM

So what's your play on the flop, Bernie?

I think waiting is definetely better w/ TT or JJ, but w/ KK I'm not so sure.

bernie · #10 02-24-2005, 03:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In situations such as this, is this more +EV than just raising the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. But don't let that get out. You will be lynched and burned at the stake.

b