common situation

BK_ · #1 02-23-2005, 06:38 PM

What is your general plan here for the flop? Needless to say when he leads out after raising utg and calling my 3 bet that I put him on some sort of pocket pair up to JJ. However, assuming he wont raise 22-44 utg, the only one I beat is 55 and he might not even raise that. I dont know if he is capable of betting out AK-AJ on this flop. Assume he bets out AK-AJ with the average frequency.

It sounds incredibly weak, but do you fold this flop? Call the flop and fold a turn if he bets again?

ignore pf, based on my pfr stats i think 3 betting is fine here.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets. hero?

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

kendal14 · #2 02-23-2005, 08:46 PM

I am joining the HUSH crowd and have a lot to learn about short handed games, so take my thoughts with a large decanter of salt.

1. I think the 3 bet is fine if you have a decent read on the UTG raiser. I think short handed and in the CO this is a good 3-bet if you have a good chance of getting this heads up.

2. What is the average AK-AJ bet out on the flop frequency?

3. I would raise the flop to get the SB out (no obvious draws out there for an SB that CC). If 3-bet on the flop I would fold to a bet on the turn.

4. On the turn, if a J or higher drops I hope to get a free card and cheap showdown. If a J or higher drops and UTG bets I fold.

MAxx · #3 02-23-2005, 09:05 PM

looks like a good flop for u (to me). i would be thinking something similar to you about his (UTG) holdings. i would then wonder why he would not c/r. i would also think there is a high probability that he is trying to buy the pot with overs and him hoping you will fold yours.

I spank him on the flop and see where that goes... in the name of protection, information, and takeing control.

or said another way i raise this flop and await the turn.

arkady · #4 02-23-2005, 09:23 PM

a lot of big aces and a lot of annoying players would play like this. So i raise; push out SB, bet turn, check river.

Trix · #5 02-23-2005, 09:24 PM

I need a very good read to do this.

Joe826 · #6 02-23-2005, 09:27 PM

this hand is a bit confusing indeed. in situations like this i generally go into "cheap showdown" mode. raise the flop, bet the turn, check behind on the river unimproved. against most 5/10 opponents, i fold to a raise at any point unless i hit my set.

Joe826 · #7 02-23-2005, 09:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
4. On the turn, if a J or higher drops I hope to get a free card and cheap showdown. If a J or higher drops and UTG bets I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, betting the turn and checking the river is the much better line here. You can easily fold to a turn check/raise and in the case that villain has overcards (very likely), the free card is much better for him than it is for you.

BK_ · #8 02-24-2005, 02:08 PM

assuming he bets turn and river also, i would have to put in 2.5 bets to win 8 (not including mine) So i need to be good 20% of the time roughly. However overcards improve on the turn or river roughly 1/4 the time, so they need to have overcards at least 1/3 of the time for me to continue.

Of course, if they will only put in 1.5 bets post flop with overcards, I should continue post flop more often. Does this math seem right? The 1/3 number makes folding at least seem to be a possibility. Though my standard line would stll probably be to raise the flop and bet the turn.

Chobohoya · #9 02-24-2005, 02:58 PM

I would raise this flop. I would do this to shut out the SB and get more information about UTG's hand, which is totally opaque, to me at least, on this flop. If he threebets, I can lay down. If he calls, then leads the turn, I'm folding unimproved. If overcards come on the turn, and he checks, I check through, then call the river unless it's another overcard. And lastly, if he checkraises the turn, I fold unimproved.

Wow. That's a lot of folding, but I think it's better than not knowing what to do the whole time, which I think is what happens if you don't raise the flop. FWIW, against the right player I could fold this flop, but that's generally not the same guy that when he raises UTG, I 3bet with 77.

Schneids · #10 02-24-2005, 03:06 PM

I'll pretend like this is 10/20 and answer it like it's that since it might be helpful to some others, and I personally don't know what 5/10 players play like [end disclaimer]:

3-bet PF is fine. I raise on the flop. If 3bet I call down. If not, I bet turn, and bet non ace/king rivers. If c/r'ed on the turn I calldown if non-scary board.

Basically, in 10/20, so often this bet out is a QJ or KJ or AT or something that is taking a stab at the pot. And oftentimes, these people that take the stab try even harder to win the pot, be it 3-betting or c/r later streets.