Was it a call or a raise? Pot limit question.

[WillYumTX]

Here's the situation.

===
We're playing pot limit Hold 'Em. We are using white chips worth $1 and red chips worth $5.

After the flop, Person A checks. Person B bets $3 with three white chips. Person C calls the $3.

Person A raises to $6 using one red chip and one white chip.

Person B puts out two red chips in one motion and sweeps back the three white chips in front of him after dropping the two red chips. So there is $10 in front of Person B. Person B does not say anything.

Did Person B technically call or raise?

===
We could not find a ruling on this in our copy of Robert's Rules. Yes, if Person B had verbalized his action, it would be clear. But that was not the case.

For further discussion (clarification), Person C then calls $6 because he thought Person B had called and not raised. Person B then says he raised to $10.

===
Any information on the rules and how this should be handled is appreciated.

Thanks! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Douper]

under betting and raising in Robert's Rules:
[ QUOTE ]

15. If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet, but do not announce a raise, you are assumed to have only called. Example: In a $3-$6 game, when a player bets $6 and the next player puts a $25 chip in the pot without saying anything, that player has merely called the $6 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

and from the No-Limit section:
[ QUOTE ]
9. A bet of a single chip or bill without comment is considered to be the full amount of the chip or bill allowed. However, a player acting on a previous bet with a larger denomination chip or bill is calling the previous bet unless this player makes a verbal declaration to raise the pot. (This includes acting on the forced bet of the big blind.)

[/ QUOTE ]


hrmm the plot thickens. it's two chips against a bet.

[msb]

Hmmm... did he pull back the white chips thinking he was "getting change" from the pot? In other words, was he trying to call, but only had red chips and thought that by putting in $10 and pulling back $3 (although it should have been $4) meant that he was calling?

Even though this doesn't make any sense (because the $3 in front him is still his money, so there is no "making change"), the way you describe it, it seems like that's what he might have been trying to do.

Why didn't you just ask him what his intention was? Maybe it was a simple mistake. On the other hand, if you think he was angling, I would say the $10 was a raise and it's $10 to go.

Edit: Sorry, just read the last part... sounds like a raise to me.

[KaiShin]

I don't understand what the problem with verbally announcing your raise is. You want your raise to stand and not be called back as a string bet or something, just announce it. Its not that hard.

[Veloso]

I was at this game, and I want to stick up for Person B. He is usually quite precise about poker protocol, and usually verbalizes all his actions. But last night's game was an exceedingly chatty table, and people sometimes made mistakes. He made a mistake, and made a bet without verbalizing it, and there was confusion.

Yes, we all agree that verbalizing bets avoids situations like this.

But what's done is done. We try to play as close to casino rules as practical, and we were stumped in trying to figure out how a good floorperson would rule.

In practice no harm was done, because we all agreed neither person B nor person C was trying to be deceptive. Person B really thought he was betting $10 and person C really thought he was calling $6. So we let the $10 bet stand and allowed person C to take his call back.

But we really couldn't agree on whether the "single larger denomination chip is a call" rule extended to this scenario with two chips. I believed (both before and after referring to Robert's Rules) that it was a special case rule applied to one chip only. But many at our table didn't see it that way, and I can respect where they are coming from.

So what is the actual rule here? If he threw out a single $25 chip, we all would agree it was a call. If he threw out $25 in five red chips, we would all agree it was a raise. What did his action of throwing out two red chips and taking back his original bet signify?

[msb]

[ QUOTE ]
But we really couldn't agree on whether the "single larger denomination chip is a call" rule extended to this scenario with two chips. I believed (both before and after referring to Robert's Rules) that it was a special case rule applied to one chip only. But many at our table didn't see it that way, and I can respect where they are coming from.

So what is the actual rule here? If he threw out a single $25 chip, we all would agree it was a call. If he threw out $25 in five red chips, we would all agree it was a raise. What did his action of throwing out two red chips and taking back his original bet signify?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the rule does specifically say single chip. Kind of hard to read around that one.

[Douper]

I think the intention of the single chip rule was that if a player didn't have the correct change to make the call he would use one larger chip to make the call, and get change.

[guller]

I don't know if this will help or not but...

I was playing a NL tourney at the Rio a few weeks back and came across this situation.

River villan bet into my set $200 early in the tourney. I said nothing and threw in a $500 chip when clearly I had a stack of at least 15 - $100 chips. I actually had to move all of the hundreds off of my 500's to get to them. I figured this would clearly be considered a raise because of my intent, but no such luck. Dealer (who was watching me the whole time) yelled out call and threw back my change. I then told her it was a raise but no reversal.

In your situation "home game" I would ask the guy what the hell he wanted to do and leave it at that.

I think technically it should be considered a raise since he took back change from out of his bet and left an amount behind greater than a call, but I'm not sure, Floor Call.

[warewulf]

I agree that if someone doesn't say raise, it's a call. Unless it's the obvious -- someone bets $10 with two $5 chips and someone else puts in 4 $5 chips.

Also agree - If you're going to raise, say "RAISE". It stops the action and clears up the confusion. Once you verbalize it, you can put one chip in at a time until you're done.

When in doubt, it's a call and they get change. If they bitch, hopefully they will learn and not do it again.

[smoore]

He used two chips, it's a raise.