What to do w/ QQ?

RaiNz · #1 02-22-2005, 08:37 AM

My first hand at the table, so no reads. I should have capped PF. Anyway, what is your line here on the Turn. Was this a weak fold on my part? I didn't wanna end up getting trapped for 2 or more big bets on the Turn if button decided to raise again. BB seemed to be showing strength by betting into the PFR on the Flop, and then betting into him again on the turn after the flop raise.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero (poster) raises, Button 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero calls, Button raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero folds, Button...

djshawk · #2 02-22-2005, 09:46 AM

I think you have to raise the flop to give button a decision. If he is halfway decent preflop then his range of 3-betting hands will usually have you beat (AA, KK, AK) but he could also be 3-betting JJ or TT. If you raise it up here then you'll get a better handle on where you are at. I dont think folding is an option, the pot is too big, and calling just seems weak. I'd definately raise this flop. If it gets 3-bet by button or BB then I start to think about folding.

TwoShedsJackson · #3 02-22-2005, 10:32 AM

Definitely raise the flop.

Redd · #4 02-22-2005, 12:05 PM

My sentiments exactly. Raising the flop would make the turn decision much easier. And Rainz already mentioned it but for those who might not know, QQ is an autocap from any position in our games.

btspider · #5 02-22-2005, 12:12 PM

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Definitely raise the flop.

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what does this accomplish? if we have the best hand, button has 2 or 3 outs against us. he will never fold a better hand.

do we fear JJ raising behind us? (leading us to make an incorrect decision later)

Waloonga · #6 02-22-2005, 12:17 PM

It will hopefully provide the Hero with more information on the Turn. If he comes out firing with full guns again, then you may consider being beat, but if you call the 3-raise, you have shown weakness and he will definitely come out raising, believing that he has you beat. You have now no clue on what he has. As previously posted, he may have JJ or TT, but he could also have AQ.

Redd · #7 02-22-2005, 12:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Definitely raise the flop.

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what does this accomplish? if we have the best hand, button has 2 or 3 outs against us. he will never fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if Button has 3 outs, he can just about call profitably against one bet but can't call two?

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do we fear JJ raising behind us? (leading us to make an incorrect decision later)

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I fear JJ 3-betting behind us or raising behind us whether we raise or not. And either way it could lead to us making a later mistake. But isn't he less likely to 3-bet JJ than raise it?

TwoShedsJackson · #8 02-22-2005, 12:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Definitely raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

what does this accomplish? if we have the best hand, button has 2 or 3 outs against us. he will never fold a better hand.

do we fear JJ raising behind us? (leading us to make an incorrect decision later)

[/ QUOTE ]

Would this not be a raise-or-fold situation? If Hero calls, as he did, then calls the raise behind him, he's now spent 2sb more and has nothing further to go on when he's bet into again on the turn.

If he raises, a 3 bet and/or cap behind will let him know he's most likely up against a K, at least. This costs the same and makes it easier for Hero to decide whether or not to continue by calling a 3 bet or cap and what to do if/when faced with more turn aggression.

The only alternative is to fold instantly to any aggression on the flop.

Chris Daddy Cool · #9 02-22-2005, 12:31 PM

capping preflop makes this hand a lot easier to play.

you have a clear fold on the turn.

but as for the flop in this particular hand since you didn't cap preflop, why do you want to raise this flop? exactly how does that make the hand easier to play? getting a raise 3-betted and getting your overcall raised aquires you the same information imo.

btspider · #10 02-22-2005, 12:34 PM

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But if Button has 3 outs, he can just about call profittably against one bet but can't call two?

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it might be close on the flop, but he'd have to bail on turn. i'm pretty sure its wrong, but i'm just considering an effective odds style calldown (bet if checked to). if AQ/JJ raises the flop behind us, we'd have problems tho.

[ QUOTE ]
I fear JJ 3-betting behind us or raising behind us whether we raise or not. And either way it could lead to us making a later mistake. But isn't he less likely to 3-bet JJ than raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]

if JJ wants to 3-bet this flop, he got lucky that we have QQ and the BB feels strong or dumb enough to bet into a PF raiser and PF 3-bettor. i think we'd have to give this pot up (on the turn) and just take this LAGs money later. putting in 3 big bets to make a turn fold (cap flop, bet turn) seems like chip spewing.

i *really* wish we capped PF now.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i'd probably end up raising this flop and check-folding the turn if 3-bet.