KJs -- too much?

KingOtter · #1 02-20-2005, 11:58 PM

I've been noticing that my aggression numbers are a bit lower than everyone elses. I bordered on the 2.0 range most of the time.

I'm also reading HEPFAP and I've come away with the idea that I need a reason to call. If I don't have a specific reason to call, then I raise or fold. If the hand isn't good enough to raise, then I fold. As with most poker advice I've been reading lately, a lot depends on the exact sitation, but I use it as a general guideline lately and my aggression has been coming up. And I've been doing pretty good with it winning about 40BB over the past couple days before losing it today in a fit of variance.

Here's an example. Good, bad, indifferent?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, Button calls, BB 3-bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Backdoor flush, gutshot straight, second pair. I have a lot going for it. In the past I probably would have called here, underestimating my potential hand. I don't expect Aces to fold here. I don't care if they do.

BB raising throws a wrench in my plans. I'm proabably beat.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

Pot's big enough to call for gutshot which is my only win/chop here.

River: (14.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button folds.

Hrmm, maybe I should have folded here?

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

KO

NateDog · #2 02-21-2005, 12:26 AM

KO - I'm in the same boat as far as aggression #'s, and have been using advice I want to say YOU GAVE ME! It fits right into your raise or fold the flop line here.

As far as the river, I know you aren't supposed to fold the river for 1 more bet, and you only have to be right 1 in 13 times here. I've only got 250 hands at party .50 (working off a bonus), but I've noticed that Aces stick like glue. That said, I'll call this one down. I want to see what the BB shows down and decide if I want him on my left or not.

I suck at all of this, but felt like postin [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

hate · #3 02-21-2005, 12:30 AM

Remember that you're looking at a one-card straight. With those discounted odds because of chop potential, I'm not sure I'd be calling to the river, and I don't like the calldown at all at the river when BB check-3betted and your gutshot doesn't hit.

Shillx · #4 02-21-2005, 12:36 AM

I like the raise in this spot, but you don't seem to have a plan for why you are making it. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

You seem to have the "If I should call, I should raise" type plan (which is a good one imo on this flop) but give me a AK6 flop and this raise loses almost all of its appeal. Discuss.

Brad

NateDog · #5 02-21-2005, 12:39 AM

without the backdoor draws, your hand is very devalued.

KingOtter · #6 02-21-2005, 12:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
KO - I'm in the same boat as far as aggression #'s, and have been using advice I want to say YOU GAVE ME!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is TRULY a scary thing to me, lol.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But thanks!

KO

Shillx · #7 02-21-2005, 12:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
without the backdoor draws, your hand is very devalued.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) A raise might fold a better hand.
2) A raise might get someone with a ten to fold.
3) A raise might get someone wiht a jack to fold.

Who cares if someone folds T9 on a AK6 flop? Who cares if J7 folds on a AK6 flop? We would like it very much if these hands folded out.

Brad

toss · #8 02-21-2005, 12:53 AM

Those are some good points Shill.

KingOtter · #9 02-21-2005, 12:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the raise in this spot, but you don't seem to have a plan for why you are making it. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

You seem to have the "If I should call, I should raise" type plan (which is a good one imo on this flop) but give me a AK6 flop and this raise loses almost all of its appeal. Discuss.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really 'If I should call, I should raise' line, it is more I need a specific reason to call. As in, "I'm calling because I want to keep the people behind me in the game for equity" For example on a flush draw where the bet comes from my immediate right.

In this case my plan for raising was because I felt I had a lot of equity in the hand with the different paths I could have gone. I don't think I'm folding anyone that got a piece of the flop, here. I have a lot of redraws to my 'made hand' of a pair of kings.

AK6 would have a very limited amount of redraws, and the main strength of the hand would rest on the second pair. I WOULD raise AK6 if it was a smaller field on the flop. With the number of people that saw this flop, though, I wouldn't.

KO

KingOtter · #10 02-21-2005, 12:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
without the backdoor draws, your hand is very devalued.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) A raise might fold a better hand.
2) A raise might get someone with a ten to fold.
3) A raise might get someone wiht a jack to fold.

Who cares if someone folds T9 on a AK6 flop? Who cares if J7 folds on a AK6 flop? We would like it very much if these hands folded out.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

You might be able to get a T9 to fold on an AKQ flop at 1/2, but it weren't happening (bad grammar on purpose, for humor) to me today. But yes, that is another reason to fold when you have second best hand. You want to make it too expensive for other people to draw out on you.

KO