The second nut flush

adsman · #1 02-18-2005, 10:57 AM

Villian here is a LAG who had been complaining whenever he lost a pot. He had lost a lot of them.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, Button caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button bets

Hero?

moot · #2 02-18-2005, 11:23 AM

I sometimes limp with this preflop, but I don't mind the raise. (EDIT == misread, you didn't raise; ignore that)

Flop looks good.

The question is, was the player capping with a made flush or a flush draw (a see a fair amount of players do this with a high flush card)? There's also a chance they were raising to keep it out, which won't work and usually is not a smart play, yet I see many lower limit players attempt it.

It's very likely that they might have capped with a lower made flush, so I'd consider betting out the turn. If raised I'd probably call down.

The river is an automatic call. If you had bet out the turn and were smooth called you could bet the river, but you have to call. Most times you're beating a lower flush.

EDIT == A set is also possible.

jon_keck · #3 02-18-2005, 11:23 AM

I think you need to bet the turn here. Villain going crazy on the flop isn't a good enough indicator that he has the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to make you slow down on the turn.

MP1 sticking around complicates things (he would probably fold all non-flush hands that are drawing dead if you bet), but I don't know if there is more value in getting MP1 to overcall vs. being aggressive.

edit: Call on the river here.

adsman · #4 02-18-2005, 11:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I sometimes limp with this preflop, but I don't mind the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't raise - the button did. Looking at it again the turn check was a definate mistake. The reason I questioned the river was to see if anyone thought a raise was in order here?

davelin · #5 02-18-2005, 11:37 AM

Am I crazy for thinking about pitching this pre-flop?

bleechers · #6 02-18-2005, 11:44 AM

Depends on your read of the guy on the button. He Raised on the Button. Was it a steal? Was High Pair or was middle to high pair or AK? I seen guys that just will not relase these hands.

davelin · #7 02-18-2005, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on your read of the guy on the button. He Raised on the Button. Was it a steal? Was High Pair or was middle to high pair or AK? I seen guys that just will not relase these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

With two limpers I'm guessing it's not a steal. We're an underdog to most raising hands plus being out of position doesn't help. Just curious...

moot · #8 02-18-2005, 11:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I sometimes limp with this preflop, but I don't mind the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't raise - the button did. Looking at it again the turn check was a definate mistake. The reason I questioned the river was to see if anyone thought a raise was in order here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, my bad. Just ignore that first bit.

adsman · #9 02-18-2005, 11:53 AM

The table was quite loose, most hands went to the flop six or seven handed, (not this one though I know). The player on the button was tilting, complaining, and he was a table coach. I had the distinct impression that he was getting deperate for a win. The middle position player was TP.

I wasn't sure whether to call this or not. In fact, I checked SSH for some guidance. Miller said to play it. I wasn't blindly following his advice. I just thought I'd take a shot at it and see if a str8 or a flush came up.

moot · #10 02-18-2005, 11:59 AM

Looking at it, the call might be a touch loose, but since you already have two limpers you can count on a multiway pot and the BB will usually tag along, too. You'll be about of position, but since you're first to act and he's last you can bet out the flop if you get a strong draw and hope he raises (thus trapping the limpers).

PF call seems perfectly fine. Oh, and make sure you include reads when you first post the hand. Helps us evaluate better.

EDIT ==

Oh, and that's another thing. You might wanna consider flat out betting the flop here and hoping the button reraises, thus trapping the limpers.

This is especially true if you flop 4 to a flush, because you can almost be sure of a raise from the button (less likely on this hand, because he might get scared).