What is the right way to handle these situations?

[passion]

I have not been at the table long and don't have strong reads or many hands on Villian2

Villian1 has VP$IP=22.05, PFR%=4.10, and PFA (Post Flop Aggression)=3.43.

Villain2 has VP$IP=44.83, PFR%=10.34, and PFA=1

What is the correct way to handle these situations? Should I fold, re-raise (push), or call the raise and wait for a blank on the turn?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 2$ BB( 6 max, 6 handed) converter

MP ($147.6)
CO: Villian2 ($70.05)
Button ($184.9)
SB: Hero ($76.7)
BB: Villian1 ($152.3)
UTG ($100)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1. UTG posts a blind of $2.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Villian2 calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) completes, Villian1 checks.

Flop: ($8) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villian1 raises to $14</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Villian2 calls $14</font>, Hero?

Passion

[PoBoy321]

Fold pre-flop. Even though you're in the SB and it's only another $1 to call, this hand isn't even worth completing with. Maybe if it was suited and there were a lot of limpers, I could see an argument for it, but fold and save yourself this grief.

[MyMindIsGoing]

I would fold preflop to stay out of trouble, but once on the flop I would push after the raise.

[bholdr]

i wouldn't ever push bottom two pair into a raise and a call- you're either up against A6 AQ (unlikely due to preflop action) or a set. even if you're only up against an A and a Q with a better kicker, there are a lot of cards that'll kill your hand, including a paired board. factor in all the posibilities, and a push is -EV. it's a fold, IMO, you're just asking to get your stack taken here.

fold that preflop: your cards are garbage, your position is even worse. you should be limping from the SB with hands like Kxs, J8s, 9T, K9, 23s etc- you need the straight and/or flush potential to make such limps profitable.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
i wouldn't ever push bottom two pair into a raise and a call- you're either up against A6 AQ (unlikely due to preflop action) or a set. even if you're only up against an A and a Q with a better kicker, there are a lot of cards that'll kill your hand, including a paired board. factor in all the posibilities, and a push is -EV. it's a fold, IMO, you're just asking to get your stack taken here.

fold that preflop: your cards are garbage, your position is even worse. you should be limping from the SB with hands like Kxs, J8s, 9T, K9, 23s etc- you need the straight and/or flush potential to make such limps profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

without question it's a fold pf. But folding the flop is out of the question. it's 6 max.

call, check raise all in on a non ace turn.

[passion]

Hmm. I'm surprised by the responses to this post. In particular, I'm suprised so many would suggest folding Q6o from the SB in an unraised pot with (effectively 3 limpers). I call everytime in this situation because I have an excellent chance of picking up the pot on a Q high flop (yes I would lead out even with a 6 kicker), I have a chance of picking up the pot even if I don't flop anything, and I could always flop two pair or trips.

What I am most interested in are comments on the post-flop play. From the limited information I have Villian1 does not need much of a hand to raise a flop bet. He is aggresive post flop and probably knows that I don't need a real solid hand to lead at a flop. If I had to guess he has something like A8, A9 or AT (or a flush draw). The trickier part of this hand is figuring out what Villian2 might have to cold call Villian1's flop raise. He would have certainly raised PF with AQ, QQ, or AA, but he could have A6. He could also have Ax. Given that I have one 6 and there is one on the board it is rather unlikely that he has 66. And of course he could be drawing at a flush.

Now lets assume that I am ahead and that either Villian1 , Villian2, or both are on a flush draw. If these facts are known what is the best way to handel the situation?

One could make an argument for pushing after the raise. In this case Villian1 is getting nearly 2 to 1 (113 to 63) on a call. Villian2 may be getting the nearly the same price (if Villian1 folds), or a better price (if Villian1 calls). The point I am making is that it is impossible given the stack sizes to sufficiently cut down the pot odds so that it is a large mistake for Villian1 or Villian2 to call with a flush draw. Yes it is marginalally -EV to call with a flush draw, but not dramatically so.

The other option (short of folding) is to call the raise and wait for the turn card to make a move. The potential advantage to this approach is if the turn card is a non-heart then a large bet will induce a folds or a bad call, assuming the reads are correct.

I tend to pursue the former approach in dealing with these types of hands, but I am wondering if the latter is more appropriate.

Although it is totally irrelevant I pushed, Villian1 mucked, and Villian2 called with 79h. He won the pot by catching a heart on the turn.

Passion

[bholdr]

I disagree:

he's leading out from EP, saying 'i have at least top pair'
he gets raised- villan is saying 'i have better than that!'
and the raise gets called- 'i got you both beat and don't mind seeing a turn'

my thought then would be 'what could the second villan call a pot bet and a raise with that doesn't have bottom two beat- other than AK?'

i wouldn't worry about one raise from an aggressive player, but throw in the smooth call, and it's a (somewhat marginal, i admit) fold, IMO. one could argue taking the cheap turn card, but it's a check-fold from there, again, IMO.

the fact that it's six max doesn't really enter into my thinking here- postflop, at least. there is only one way for him to win and a lot of ways to lose. he's even behind Top pair +flush draw. but i'm still working on my 6max game. what, in your opinion, makes it so different in this situation?

[tbach24]

1. Fold pre-flop.

2. Fold teh flop, you are either way behind, or a little ahead.

[warlockjd]

1. Fold preflop.

2. Bottom 2 is not a great hand. What is he pushing here that you can beat?

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm suprised so many would suggest folding Q6o from the SB in an unraised pot with (effectively 3 limpers).

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude you just hit your miracle flop, and it's giving you trouble. Thats why you don't put another SB in preflop.