Advice sought from anyone who has recently moved up to 10/20...

[That guy]

I have been playing less than a year but have learned how to win and feel comfortable and confident in my game after a lot of reading and thinking...

I moved to 5/10 and have noticed very little difference in my results after learning how to beat 3/6 a few months ago. I feel real good about my TAG style and think it would work higher (10/20). That all said, I am not 'extracting the maximum' by any means. I feel like I really understand the numbers and have definitely waited for situations with a pretty clear overlay in order to get involved. I seem to consistently have the lowest VP$IP whenver I play (although it is close reasonably often). I have found that others still pay me off when I hit.

I figure all I need to learn how to 'extract' more is to see more hands and get comfortable with adding some more 'plays' to my arsenal. Also, some things like figuring out better how to play middle pairs for profit (I muck them too much pre-flop unless there is 'set value')...

So I figure while I get more experience, I might as well play higher unless I find a good reason not to (my bankroll can cover it for 300+ BB's)...

So that is my question, are 10/20 players that much different than 5/10 players or is it pretty much the same?? This is for all those 10/20 players that remember the jump... was it that much tougher? Were you 'extracting the maximum' before you made the jump?? What is 'extracting the maximum' anyway --- 2+ BB's?? I am at 1+ BB's but I avoid way too many situations still that I am sure has profit available... slowly but surely I will get there...

thx in advance

[TStoneMBD]

if anyone is truly extracting the maximum at their level, they should strongly consider moving up as long as their bankroll can handle it. 2BB/hr is hardly the maximum. It may be a peak that most players cannot surpass, but I assure you that there is always more maximum no matter how good you are. move up if your bankroll can handle it and youre sure that you will earn more money at 10/20 then you would at 5/10. if you can extract the maximum at 10/20 then you are far better than anybody on these forums, excluding amulet of course.

[That guy]

thx but my question was: are 10/20 players that much different than 5/10 players or is it pretty much the same??

I don't know if I can earn more at 10/20 than 5/10... I am thinking my current style will work higher because it is kind of a no-brainer, 'only play with healthy odds' strategy. It requires extreme patience and relies on opponents overplaying their hands... One thing I have found is that just as many opponents overplay their hands at 5/10 as did at 3/6... therefore my BBs/hour are about the same. (btw, it is crazy to think about how big even my swings are in this game with such a tight strategy).

Either way, I doubt I will move up yet but I was just curious how fast good players advanced and for what reasons...

was it because they were crushing the previous level or was it because they were just beating it and their bankroll growth allowed them to move up??

[AlwaysWrong]

There are far fewer loose-passives at 10/20 than at 5/10. At 5/10 you will often find tables where it goes UTG call, UTG+1 call, CO fold, Button fold, sb complete, bb check. Not so much at 10/20. That's the main difference, though I have played more 5/10 than 10/20 so that's more of an initial impression.

[highland]

[ QUOTE ]

I moved to 5/10 and have noticed very little difference in my results after learning how to beat 3/6 a few months ago. I feel real good about my TAG style and think it would work higher (10/20). That all said, I am not 'extracting the maximum' by any means. I feel like I really understand the numbers and have definitely waited for situations with a pretty clear overlay in order to get involved.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, your low variance play is quite suited to moving up in stakes. Playing a lot of barely +EV hands at stakes that you're not quite comfortable with yet is a recipe for disaster. Keep tight and try moving up. Your style should work to extract money from the LAGs at higher stakes, perhaps better than it does taking money from the calling stations at the lower stakes.

good luck,
highland

[pudley4]

Disagree

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[ QUOTE ]

I moved to 5/10 and have noticed very little difference in my results after learning how to beat 3/6 a few months ago. I feel real good about my TAG style and think it would work higher (10/20). That all said, I am not 'extracting the maximum' by any means. I feel like I really understand the numbers and have definitely waited for situations with a pretty clear overlay in order to get involved.


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Playing a lot of barely +EV hands at stakes that you're not quite comfortable with yet is a recipe for disaster.

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Folding a lot of +EV hands is a recipe for disaster.

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Keep tight and try moving up. Your style should work to extract money from the LAGs at higher stakes, perhaps better than it does taking money from the calling stations at the lower stakes.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no, no, no. As you move up, the players get better at reading hands and not paying off. Calling stations pay off - that's the definition of a calling station. Playing super-tight ABC becomes less and less effective as you move up.

[nut case ace]

I made the 10/20 jump maybe a couple months ago and I havent noticed a huge difference. I figure I play the same style as you cuz I definitely have the lowest VP$IP at my table 95% of the time. I had only played 5/10 for a few months so i think i made the jump a little prematurely, but i was crushing the game so i figured i'd give it a shot. I've been playing 10/20 almost exclusively ever since and I'm doing just as well. obviously i havent played long enough to know how good i am relative to the average player at the level, but i doubt i'm less than a 2BB winner in the long term. It really is all about patience and getting good reads on betting patterns, etc. If you really feel comfortable i'd give it a shot. I think that anyone who can beat 5/10 should be able to beat 10/20, especially with your style. if you're like me, you'll get pushed around a bit. all you have to do against those players is wait on a hand and most of them are too dumb to realize that you actually have a hand when you play back and they'll keep trying to bet you out and end up paying you off. that's been my experience. I think you should be fine, but be prepared to go back down if you dont feel like you're playing your best. Good luck.

ps: read middle limit holdem.

[highland]

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Disagree

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[ QUOTE ]

I moved to 5/10 and have noticed very little difference in my results after learning how to beat 3/6 a few months ago. I feel real good about my TAG style and think it would work higher (10/20). That all said, I am not 'extracting the maximum' by any means. I feel like I really understand the numbers and have definitely waited for situations with a pretty clear overlay in order to get involved.


[/ QUOTE ]

Playing a lot of barely +EV hands at stakes that you're not quite comfortable with yet is a recipe for disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding a lot of +EV hands is a recipe for disaster.


[/ QUOTE ]

_barely_ is the key word here. When you move up in stakes, it's fine to drop a little bit in EV for a massive savings in variance. Would you flip a 51/49 favorable coin for a buck? Sure; we all would. How about for half your bankroll? Some would, I would not.

[ QUOTE ]

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Keep tight and try moving up. Your style should work to extract money from the LAGs at higher stakes, perhaps better than it does taking money from the calling stations at the lower stakes.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no, no, no. As you move up, the players get better at reading hands and not paying off. Calling stations pay off - that's the definition of a calling station. Playing super-tight ABC becomes less and less effective as you move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 10/20 party games are pretty soft, as long as you use good table selection. 5 of your 9 opponents probably don't realize that you're a rock. And, as you move up in stakes, the way to make money is to cash in on the over-aggressive folks. One good way to do this is by starting with vastly better hands than they do, and press your way to a heads up confrontation.

Anyway, our disagreement is that I do think tight ABC players can easily make 1BB/hr at 10/20. The higher stakes money tends to come more from maniacs than from calling stations. ABC works fine against maniacs.

[highland]

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Either way, I doubt I will move up yet but I was just curious how fast good players advanced and for what reasons...

was it because they were crushing the previous level or was it because they were just beating it and their bankroll growth allowed them to move up??

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I moved up at partypoker was after I'd quickly lost all of my 150 BB winnings at 10/20 (6max) :P. iirc, I'm still a breakeven player at those stakes, while I was 3 BB/100 at the 5/10 6max. My roommate suggested I move up to the 15/30 full table games, because he thought it would be an easy game for me to beat, with lower variance than a shorthanded game.

So, once you have enough bankroll that you're comfortable _losing_ higher, and you have a good reason to believe that you can beat the game, go on up. I trusted my friend's analysis of my play and the party 15/30. Maybe you could watch some 10/20 and see if there are players making a lot of mistakes that are obvious to you. If there are a couple players consistantly cold-calling, or limping first-in in late position, value betting 22 unimproved on the river, or not capping preflop in a multiway pot with AA, go ahead and jump in. If these are things you would do, definitely hit the books first.

cheers,
highland

[bobbyi]

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My roommate suggested I move up to the 15/30 full table games, because he thought it would be an easy game for me to beat, with lower variance than a shorthanded game.

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I had just been wonderding about this. How does the variance at 10/20 6-max compare to 15/30? Anyone who has played a lot of hands of each have actual numbers they can give me?