Set of Queens played perfectly...

PotatoStew · #1 02-12-2005, 06:55 PM

...perfectly questionably that is. Even though the pot ended up huge, I can't help but think I could have pumped it up more. On the other hand, maybe someone thinks I should have been defending my hand, rather than pumping the pot? Let me know.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Reads: BB tends towards super-loose, super aggressive. MP1 seems aggressive, and somewhat tightish.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

I just called the 3-bet because I'm out of position, and MP1 probably has a decent hand.

Flop: (18 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

If I bet out here on the flop, MP1 may raise, driving people out of the pot. So I check, being fairly sure he'll bet. This way more money is trapped in the pot when I raise all his callers.

I'm least sure about this play. Should I have merely called here, going for the check-raise on the turn? Should I have 3-bet here? Should I have bet out, *trying* to drive people out of the pot? So many choices...

Turn: (17 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, BB folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

River: (25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 28 BB

mr pink · #2 02-12-2005, 07:04 PM

why not cap preflop? i dont know man the line you took is kinda crazy to me. that flop is too coordinated for me with the QJ up there to warrant a slowplay - there'll probably be a couple gutshots out there that are drawing. i think i would have led out on the flop and hoped he raised so i could 3-bet it. the pot is huge and i'd want to protect it rather than tie people to it.

ElSapo · #3 02-12-2005, 07:16 PM

Played exactly as I would have played it, for what that's worth. Which part was questionable?

mrjim · #4 02-12-2005, 07:16 PM

I agree, cap pre-flop and lead the flop to protect your hand. When the pot is big you should focus on winning in, not building it. Since you didn't lead the flop, why on earth didn't you cap it???

Munga30 · #5 02-12-2005, 07:16 PM

You should cap preflop. Many flops will be so pretty and you'd rather they fear you those times.

Given your preflop play, I'm not sure you could have gotten any more money out of them postflop. You have excellent relative position to the other aggressor that makes going for the turn checkraise very worthwhile. You can still bet scary cards. If MP checks something non-scary, one of the remaining monkeys will very likely bet at this big pot.

ThePimpulator · #6 02-12-2005, 07:35 PM

I think this is an interesting situation. I hope people discuss it because I have been thinking about this kind of spot for a little while and I dont really know the answer.

The thing is the board is coordinated somewhat with the QJ meaning you should think about protecting against the straight draws. Also the pot is large and the gospel according to sklansky says win big pots now.

On the other hand, with you managing to trap so many people in there both times when you CR the field on the flop and turn you are getting huge, huge value on a hand that you are going to win a very large percentage of the time.

So the question is do you try and knock gutshots out and win a smaller pot more often, or do you make a huge pot and accept that occasionally you are going to have it snatched from you late on?

Of course, it is impossible to protect from the gutshot on the flop anyway. Even they are getting odds to call two cold.

The only way I can see to protect the pot is to check call the flop then bet into MP1 on the turn and hope he raises. Even then Im not so sure even gutshots would fold since I think they could easily be getting 8-1 or more and with the implied odds I could see them staying in. As for the OESDs, they are staying in no matter what you do.

So I think im inclined to forget about protection and just do whatever builds the biggest pot, which I think you did a very good job of.

PotatoStew · #7 02-12-2005, 10:47 PM

Thanks for the responses everyone. To answer some of the questions posed:

Why didn't I cap preflop? Like I said, I was out of position, and 3 bet by a relatively early, somewhat tight player. That made me a little skittish, but I'm willing to accept that this may be too wimpy. Am I correct that nearly everyone agrees that I should have capped preflop?

Why not lead out on the flop? I agree with what ThePimpulator said... it's very difficult to protect a hand here, given the pot size. Even if I lead out and get raised immediately, even a gutshot has (implied) odds to call. With this many people in the pot, there's nearly no way I'm going to "win the pot now." On the other hand, with top set and this many people it seemed like a golden opportunity to try for a massive payoff -- It seemed to me better to try to build the pot. For a single bet, even hopeless hands like single pairs and such (someone holding Jx for instance) might stay in. Then I can raise them.

Why didn't I cap the flop? I almost did. But I figured by easing off, I could pull a turn checkraise on nearly the whole field. If I capped, I was worried that MP1 would slow down, or more people would drop out on any turn betting.

I'm not saying that I played it right, I'm just giving the reasons for my play. It is interesting that the responses seem roughly evenly split between saying I did ok and I should have led out/capped more. I'd definitely like to see some more responses, and hear if there's any way to figure out the most "correct" way to play this.