Inside the mind of UTG raiser...

[anatta]

Lets say you are playing your normal tight-aggressive game and you raise UTG with AK or AQ. Now a player who is also playing tight-aggressive three-bets you. You think he might three-bet with AQ, but not sure. You suspect its TT to AQ minimum, (hands like AJs, 88 or something crazy are possible but not too likely). Do you cap with AK? What about AQ?

For those who just call the three-bet, say the flop comes low. Do you check-fold, check-raise, check-call or bet the flop? If you play on, are you planning on showing down AK, AQ?

[Nate tha' Great]

I used to cap almost always in AKo with this spot but lately I've convinced myself that just calling the 3-bet may be the better option when you're out of position, think you're about even-money against his range of 3-betting hands, and there are no other players in the pot.

I haven't made this variation for long enough to really get a sense for all the possibilities but my sense is that you have more flexibiliy in terms of check-raising, *maybe* playing it a little bit slow if you pair the board, or simply calling down.

I can't imagine ever folding AKo on a ragged flop against a typical 3-bet in one of my gmaes.

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Lets say you are playing your normal tight-aggressive game and you raise UTG with AK or AQ. Now a player who is also playing tight-aggressive three-bets you. You think he might three-bet with AQ, but not sure. You suspect its TT to AQ minimum, (hands like AJs, 88 or something crazy are possible but not too likely). Do you cap with AK? What about AQ?

For those who just call the three-bet, say the flop comes low. Do you check-fold, check-raise, check-call or bet the flop? If you play on, are you planning on showing down AK, AQ?

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[CardSharpCook]

I like this question. It asks, how do you play against a reraise from a fellow 2+2er?

If I have AQ in this situation, I know I'm beat, it is just a question of how badly. I will never bet this hand again, but I will call down if an A or Q appear on the flop. I'm folding on the flop if no A or Q. The belief is that the reraiser is aware of my raising standards UTG and would normally get out of the way to allow me to take on the fish - saving his money for a chance to do the same.

If I have AK, I still assume that he has a better holding. AQ should be the only hand he might reraise with that I am beating. AND it is less likely that he has this as I hold one of the aces (12 possible AQs, only 3 suited ones vs 3 AA, 3KK, 6QQ 6JJ). While it is now clear that many 2+2ers DO NOT pass Feeney's AQ test, I still have to assume that the rerariser knows what he is doing. I call him down, calling one flop bet when rags fall.

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[Nate tha' Great]

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If I have AK, I still assume that he has a better holding. AQ should be the only hand he might reraise with that I am beating. AND it is less likely that he has this as I hold one of the aces (12 possible AQs, only 3 suited ones vs 3 AA, 3KK, 6QQ 6JJ). While it is now clear that many 2+2ers DO NOT pass Feeney's AQ test, I still have to assume that the rerariser knows what he is doing. I call him down, calling one flop bet when rags fall.

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I think it's a pretty bad mathematical mistake to fold anywhere on like a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board with AKo against a 2+2er who will 3-bet you with AQo, especially if you take the passive line preflop.

[bxpeter]

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If I have AK, I still assume that he has a better holding. AQ should be the only hand he might reraise with that I am beating. AND it is less likely that he has this as I hold one of the aces (12 possible AQs, only 3 suited ones vs 3 AA, 3KK, 6QQ 6JJ). While it is now clear that many 2+2ers DO NOT pass Feeney's AQ test, I still have to assume that the rerariser knows what he is doing. I call him down, calling one flop bet when rags fall.

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I think it's a pretty bad mathematical mistake to fold anywhere on like a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board with AKo against a 2+2er who will 3-bet you with AQo, especially if you take the passive line preflop.

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Are most 2+2ers betting the river with AQ or AK?

[CanKid]

Sometimes if the game is playing very fast and I've been in alot of action hands recently I may call to try to trap villain later in the hand, this is assuming it's folded back around to me and my opponent is fairly aggressive post flop, so if we both connect I can get alot of bets in.

If the flop comes low I'll check raise and (if not 3-bet) lead the turn and take it from there.

This is assuming hand is Live and not online.

[Nate tha' Great]

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If I have AK, I still assume that he has a better holding. AQ should be the only hand he might reraise with that I am beating. AND it is less likely that he has this as I hold one of the aces (12 possible AQs, only 3 suited ones vs 3 AA, 3KK, 6QQ 6JJ). While it is now clear that many 2+2ers DO NOT pass Feeney's AQ test, I still have to assume that the rerariser knows what he is doing. I call him down, calling one flop bet when rags fall.

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[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a pretty bad mathematical mistake to fold anywhere on like a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board with AKo against a 2+2er who will 3-bet you with AQo, especially if you take the passive line preflop.

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Are most 2+2ers betting the river with AQ or AK?

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This is almost a game theoretic sort of problem.

Suppose that the opponent believes that you'll call down with AK always and call down with AQ 2/3 of the time. Suppose that the opponent can put you on exactly one of these two hands. Suppose further that the pot size on the river is 6.5 BB.

He should bet with AK because he loses nothing against another AK but will win a bet 1/3 of the time against AQ.

He should *not* bet with AQ. His opponent will have AK 12/21 of the time and AQ 9/21 of the time. The only way he gains is by avoiding a chop with AQ 3/21 of the time, which has an EV of (3/21 * 6.5 BB * .5) = +.46 BB versus a loss of (12/21 * 1 BB) = -57 BB when being called down by AK.

However, suppose that he'll also 3-bet before the flop with AJs or KQs. These hands are facing an equal number of combinations of AK and AQ. Now all he has left is folding equity. However, he has enough folding equity to venture a bet, since his opponent will have AQ *and fold it* 1/6 of the time, which is better than the 6.5:1 that the pot is laying him.

....

Now returning to your shoes. Say that you have AK, and you believe that your opponent would 3-bet with AK-AQ, AJs, KQs, AA-99.

AK, which he will bet, has 9 combos.
AQ, which he won't bet, has 12 combos.
KQs-AJs, which he will bet, have 6 combos total.
AA, which he will bet, has 3 combos.
KK, which he will bet, has 3 combos.
99, which he will bet, has 3 combos.
QQ-TT, which he will bet, have 6 combos each, or 18 total.

Those times that your opponent bets, that works out to 27 combos that beat you, 6 combos that you beat, and 9 that you chop with. or 31.5 wins and 10.5 losses. This is an easy call getting 7.5:1.

Now suppose instead that you have AQ.

Your opponents' hands:

AK, which he will bet on the river, has 12 combos.
AQ, which he won't bet, has 9 combos.
KQs-AJs, which he will bet, have 6 combos total.
AA, which he will bet, has 3 combos.
KK, which he will bet, has 6 combos.
QQ, which he will bet, has 3 combos.
99, which he will bet, has 3 combos.
JJ-TT, which he will bet, have 6 combos each, or 12 total.

Now, those times that your opponent bets, there are 6 combos that you beat versus 39 that you lose to. That is still a correct call getting 7.5:1. However, you probably should have folded on the turn.

...you can see how this gets convoluted and this post wasn't what I'd hoped it would be but in general if you make it to the river with one of these hands you should be calling.

[CardSharpCook]

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If I have AK, I still assume that he has a better holding. AQ should be the only hand he might reraise with that I am beating. AND it is less likely that he has this as I hold one of the aces (12 possible AQs, only 3 suited ones vs 3 AA, 3KK, 6QQ 6JJ). While it is now clear that many 2+2ers DO NOT pass Feeney's AQ test, I still have to assume that the rerariser knows what he is doing. I call him down, calling one flop bet when rags fall.

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I think it's a pretty bad mathematical mistake to fold anywhere on like a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board with AKo against a 2+2er who will 3-bet you with AQo, especially if you take the passive line preflop.

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I guess I still have the opinion that 3betting AQo PF against a 2+2er who raised UTG is unwise, AND most 2+2ers know better. However, I only need to read the other thread to know that it is untrue.

So is the line to call down with Nut-no pair vs a 2+2er when rags flop after he 3-bet you PF? This seems so wrong to me. You've got to be beat 75% of the time, tie 10% and lose the rest. Remember, if rags keep falling, you're not folding to what becomes a monster pot. Any post flop raising would be to prohibit a split pot or push him off AQ - a hand that you'd rather he bet for you (and stick around with). I can't see that post flop aggression is the answer. Same with pre-flop aggression - you're trying to push him off of hands that you'd rather he call with AND you're making him more stubborn with his JJ/TT (should a Q/J fall) by convincing him he has the pot odds to stick around and see if you have AK.

Save your money for the fishies - don't give it to a 2+2er. Call him down if you must, but consider folding.

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[CardSharpCook]

Good analysis, Nate. I love it when people put time and numbers into responses.

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[amulet]

you don't cap with AK vs a solid player out of position (and not usually with position). certainly not with AQ, in fact your now not happy to be in the pot with AQ.