Good takeaways, reckless play, or both?

passion · #1 02-10-2005, 12:58 PM

Two hands from this mornings session

Hand #1

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ 2BB Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

UTG ($111.2)
MP ($189.63)
CO ($164.1)
Villian ($49.4)
SB ($108.65)
Hero ($310.86)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, CO calls $2, Villian calls $2, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($8) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Villian bets $6, SB folds, Hero calls $6, CO folds.

Turn: ($20) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villian bets $10, Hero calls $10.

River: ($40) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $31.4, Villian folds.

Final Pot: $71.40

Hand #2

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ 2BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

SB ($98)
Villian ($170)
UTG ($220.8)
MP ($76.7)
CO ($96)
Hero ($529.91)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
3 folds, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, Villian calls $6.

Flop: ($17) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villian checks, Hero bets $14, Villian calls $14.

Turn: ($45) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villian bets $55, Hero calls $55.

River: ($155) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villian checks, Hero bets $75, Villian folds.

Final Pot: $230

37offsuit · #2 02-10-2005, 02:05 PM

I like the second hand play better than the first. I think the first was a little reckless without a really strong read. The villian in the first has shown moderate strength on a draw heavy flop. Without a raise preflop, he could have been value betting his flush on the turn, or had the straight outs on the river. On this hand he didn't, but he could have.

The second hand it looks like the villian is trying to protect a vulnerable hand like two pair or a set, and then gave up betting on the river because of a very scary board, or he was trying to represent the flush on the turn and you just happened to pick off his bluff. Given you have position, it works better than the first hand.

Still, I think your overall play of both these hands was reckless.

emil3000 · #3 02-10-2005, 02:28 PM

How did you interpret the overbet in hand 2? I can't make any sense of it really, best guess is a weak player trying to protect his hand, but it's pretty horrible poker then, in my opinion.

At the 6max I generally don't try to move players off of bigger hands, the game seems to wild for that to work. Also there is the question of whether you had odds to draw to a straight, which may or may not be good, and scare cards, which may or may not be scare cards. Was your plan to bluff him at the river even without the fourth heart?

passion · #4 02-10-2005, 02:56 PM

I interpret the turn overbet in hand #2 as JT (but possiblly QT, KT, or AT) not wanting to get outdrawn. Clearly given the stack size of Villian I don't have the odds to draw at just str8 and trip outs (max implied odds of about 1 to 3.5 - 55 to 195 - on a draw thats 1 to 4). Because I thought Villian had JT I called the turn with the intention of representing a flush if another heart game. This gave me an additional 9 psuedo outs. My read said JT (which would mean no hearts) so I was betting, and expecting to pick up the pot, if any a heart fell. If I happened to catch a non-heart 7 or a Q I expected to clean Villian out.

Passion

emil3000 · #5 02-10-2005, 03:23 PM

I think I like it, but I wouldn't dare to try it out for myself, too much risk and not enough gain. the EV is very marginally positive here I think. He could have a bigger hand than you give him credit for, in which case you'll get cleaned, not him. Anyway, I like it, and I think a not unimportant factor as to why this is a good move, is the great feeling that you'll get every time you pull it.

As for hand 1, it's definitely a hand that should be taken away from him. My style is taking it on the turn, or the flop, what's your reasoning behind waiting for the river.

passion · #6 02-10-2005, 04:04 PM

I waited until the river for several reasons. First, I didn't pair up until the river. Second, I wanted it to look like I was slowplaying something big. For example, if I made a big flush on the turn I would usually check it. Third, his weakish turn bet indicated to me that he didn't have much of a hand or that he was fearful of what I might have. Of course it could also be a value bet on a pat hand like a flush, but Villian is shortstacked so I'm not going to worry about it (My losses are limited). Fourth, by the river there was a possible flush and 4 to a str8 on the board. Without two diamonds or a ten it would be difficult for him to call a stack (and near pot) sized bet, especially because my check-calls made it look like I was drawing.

This whole hand I felt like we were playing I check, you courtessy bet. That is to say, he was betting only because I was checking.

Passion

NiceCatch · #7 02-10-2005, 05:45 PM

Love the first play. Perfect play, IMHO. Two draws on the board, against his pair of Aces. Good takedown.

Not a fan of the second play. Risky, because he just needs a decent heart to call. I could easily see the villain in this case making that turn bet with the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I'm really surprised you called his turn bet. Lotta ways for that hand to go wrong, or for it to already be lost. Guess he must've been a pretty bad player to have overbet two pair or some such hand.

emil3000 · #8 02-10-2005, 07:16 PM

I like the turn bluff raise because it has some nice psychological impacts. The victim will know that he probably has to fade another bet on the river, and potentially get stacked. This is of course not a consideration in when he's nearly all in anyway.

Second reason I make it on the turn is because I usually move on my real flushes there. So my playing makes more sense to the players that pay attention.

It's a matter of style I guess. Nice hand anyways.