A5s, got min 3-betted pre-flop

[schwza]

$30 rebuy post rebuy-period. i have well over average, roughly 40th out of 200, 60 pay. i don't remember any reads, so assume none. i hadn't been raising much, so i thought this would be a good time. would you prefer A5s or 68s in this spot?

what's the plan on the flop? i'm very reluctant to get suckered into stacking off against AA/KK/AK, but planning on check-folding any flop that doesn't look like A5x or 55x can't be a good plan. what's the play?

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+1 (t20580)
Hero (t32500)
MP2 (t29640)
MP3 (t9110)
CO (t13165)
Button (t17985)
SB (t11875)
BB (t20740)
UTG (t20198)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of t400.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t2400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t4000</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls t1600.

Flop: (t9200) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t2000</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t11200

[schwza]

*bump*

i've been in this spot befre, and never known what to do. how is it that i feel like a min 3-bet is a really bad play but also that i have no idea what to do against it?

what flops should i bet? what flops should i c/r? what flops should i check-call?

i could really use some input on this one.

[Chuckster]

Just my 2 cents schwza

I think a check raise might have worked here.

There is a flush draw out there and he bet 2000 into a 8000+ pot. You are likely way behind, but I think if you make it 7500 to go after he bet his 2000, then you might be able to steal it right there.

If he goes over the top, then you obviously fold and you are still alright with 20,000+.

If he just calls you, then he might be the one on the draw (if he had a monster he would not JUST call and maybe give you your draw that you probably raised with) and you need to make your decision based on what comes out on the turn, and what your read is on him.

[kuro]

Tough spot. Preflop villain is showing alot of strength. You're most likely up against someone that's getting tricky with AA/KK or with QQ/JJ trying to figure out if you've got a big pair.

I don't think there's any shame in folding to the raise here preflop because you're likely only going to see 3 cards and unless you pick up a super draw trips or two pair you're going to have a hard time with it.

However, I'd probably call and 1/2 pot any flop with an Ace or a King, or your flush draw. The hands where you flop two or better play themselves.

[Chuckster]

Looking at it again. I do not think that the Villian has AA, KK. If I had one of these hands, I would re-raise more than just the minimum pre-flop.

I put him either on J-J, 10-10, 9-9, and maybe AQs.

He might be luring you in and flopped the boat (with 10-10) and is trying to make his flop bet look weak so that you can raise him, as I originally suggested.

Tough spot here. I still like to sometimes tell myself "ok, I am going check-raise him on a bluff with X amount and I will not go any further" so I might have indeed check-raised....but the more I look at it, the more I think he had 10-10.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking at it again. I do not think that the Villian has AA, KK. If I had one of these hands, I would re-raise more than just the minimum pre-flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

that's interesting. when i see this kind of min-3bet, i say to myself, "watch out for the AA/KK. or possibly junk like QJs." what do others think?

[Chuckster]

I am sure many people might indeed re-raise minimum pre flop with AA or KK but I guess from my experience, this could maybe induce other suspect hands to call and I really am not into getting multi-way action with AA or KK.

(IOW, maybe one of the monster stacks calls with a J-10s, or Q-Js....simply because there is a nice pot brewing)

If I have AA or KK in this situation, and someoner makes it 2400, I likely make it 6500 to go. Just my opinion.

[JARID]

schwaza,

His pf raise was weak, his flop bet is weak. I too have an irrational fear of AA when someone min raises, but I think he has to make a stronger flop be here if he does. Seems like a good chance to take a shot at the pot here with a check raise. This is where a read would be helpful though.

I disagree with Chuck, I dont think he has JJ or TT. Players usually get panicky with those hands pf and will just try to take it down w/a bigger raise. AQ or something similar is more likely, as they think they should re-raise, but are afraid of missing the flop and dont want to commit too much to the pot. This flop bet is sequential with whiffed over cards, not a pair that someone is trying to protect.
Harrington said in his book that things ARE often as they seem and that everything is not always an elaborate snare designed to trick us.(or something close to this) Decent chacne to make a move, otherwise folding is fine.

Regards,
Jarid

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
how is it that i feel like a min 3-bet is a really bad play but also that i have no idea what to do against it?


[/ QUOTE ]

I hear this again and again.

A lot of people make the mistake of saying this play or that play is always weak, particularly this min-raise.

The problem with this is that it's wrong. You don't know what to do because he has put you into a difficult spot with his min-raise. He's gotten you to put more money in the pot in a bad spot, while taking control of the pot. He's made the pot more compelling for you, so you might make a play at him with the worst hand. So how can it be such a bad play?

This becomes especially true if you're up against a player who is well-aware of the fact that the min-raise triggers every alarm bell and siren in a player's head, and who will accordingly use the min-raise as a bluff against players he views as weak-tight.

I just think that this "always a weak play" mentality flies in the face of one of the most important strengths that a decent player has, which is leaving yourself outs.

If you're convinced this play means x, and therefore y EVERY TIME, you're setting yourself up for trouble, IMHO.

Just my two cents.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure many people might indeed re-raise minimum pre flop with AA or KK but I guess from my experience, this could maybe induce other suspect hands to call and I really am not into getting multi-way action with AA or KK.

(IOW, maybe one of the monster stacks calls with a J-10s, or Q-Js....simply because there is a nice pot brewing)

If I have AA or KK in this situation, and someoner makes it 2400, I likely make it 6500 to go. Just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

just to clarify, i would never min 3bet with any hand. i'm just saying that sometimes beginning players will do it, and it's most frequently AA/KK and they really don't want you to fold.