Online deep stack: how do you handle this common situation?

[cero_z]

Hi everyone,

I've been playing a bit of NL online for a change, and I've wondered about this situation:

Fairly loose game, with several 100XBB stacks. Halfway decent players.

2 limpers, I raise to 5XBB in mid/late position with As9s. Limpers call.

Flop is 9h 7h 2c, checked to me, I bet 2/3 pot, 1 limper calls. Turn is a blank or semi-blank (4s, or maybe the Qs, for example). Limper checks. So say the pot is about 1/4 of our stacks after the flop. I've been called pre-flop and on the flop, so I'm wary, but my hand is vulnerable to overcards and the obvious draws out there, so I want to protect it.

Live, this is an easy pot bet, and then I can read the player if I get raised. But online, I hate to make a bet that is enough to protect my hand, because if I'm raised, I won't know what to do with the last half of my stack. How do you handle this?

I hope using portions of the pot, as opposed to concrete numbers isn't too confusing; I purposely wrote the post that way, because I wonder how the answer changes if you're in the PP 2-4 game, or the Stars 5-10, or the UB 25-50.

All comments appreciated, and please include what game you're thinking of, if applicable. Thanks.

[sevensuits]

At first it can look like the limper is on a flush draw, in this case feeling aggressive I would bet. A lot of the decision comes down to who the player is and I would check my notes before I made a decision.

The problem is if you bet the pot I believe you will have half your money in there and he may push. We should be able to rule out AA, KK as it would seem he would have re-raised PF. JJ is a worry and I believe this could be what we are looking at.

I would be afraid of swelling the pot with a hand like this and would possible check as your are never likly to know when your ahead. The river could help but i still wouldn't bet. In NL its difficult not to become commited with marginal hands.

I would maybe suggest not raising this hand PF, as you may walk into a similar siuation if you hit your ace on the flop.

[cero_z]

Hi sevensuits,

Thanks for the reply, but you've basically just restated my questions in your post.

As to your points: JJ is not much of a concern to me. The game is loose, so his pre-flop actions don't really indicate a hand that good. JJ would also usually raise on the flop. My main fears are sets and 2 pair. If I improve, I'm betting for sure, as I no longer fear 2 pair that much. My pre-flop raise is meant to do 3 things: possibly win it right there, build the pot in case I hit my hand hard, and get my opponents to check to me on the flop. Plus, it's probably the best hand right now, and I will usually "buy the button" by raising. So it does 3-5 things.

[iceman5]

You raise to 5BBs with A9s often? Id much rather limp there, even more so if the table is loose. Youre going to get called at least once if its that loose and then youre in the situation your describing. Thats if you get a flop as good as this one.

[sevensuits]

I agree with you about it preflop, but if you are trying to win right there then you have to deal with the consequences of playing a flop if you get called. Its all dependent on the table. loose-tight. You tried to win 3 1/2 BB and now your risking your whole stack with a Pair of nines. Theres not much value there unless you slow down on the turn.

[Kaz The Original]

For a live player such as myself, a strategy I've found profitable against unknown opponents is buying in short. This allows me to play TPTK hands stronger than I can deep stacked. It doesn't allow me to take advantage of suited connectors and sets, but without reads and intimate player knowledge, I find deep stack online hard to play.

This also allows you to multitable effectively since your lessened win rate is offset by more tables.

[creedofhubris]

Don't raise junk aces. Raise suited connectors, if you want to enhance your table image. Easier to know where you stand.

That said, you can easily run into the same top pair top kicker situation with a proper raising ace, in which case, pot the flop, check the turn, use your judgment & read on the river.

I keep getting into trouble potting the turn in these situations; it's just a bad idea unless opponent is a calling/chasing station.

[rwperu34]

Hi cero z,

This is my take from the UB $2/$4. These are my standard lines of action, and of course any of the plentiful variables can change the way the hand played.

Preflop: I would not raise (outside of the occasional mix up). There is no reason to build the pot at this point, as you will get plenty of action when you hit. With a hand like Axs, I want as many limpers as possible, making the chances better of one of them having a hand when I do hit big. Small pocket pairs are not going to fold, so you still have to fear the set. If I'm gonna be afraid of the set, I want the pot as small as possible. I'm not real worried about AT-AQ, because I'm not going too far with one pair anyway. As for buying the button, it's nice when it works, but the suckyness when it doesn't work is too much of a price to pay, so I would only try and buy the button from the CO. Even then only on occasion against a more predictable opponent.

Flop: I like your bet. In fact my standard bet is about 60%. Your overcharging them for thier draws, leaves room for them to call with the hands you beat, and saves you money (opposed to a pot bet) when you get raised and have to fold. Incidentally, in my experience, by betting 50% of the pot, you get disproportionatly fewer folds. So I like to keep it between 60%-70%.

Turn: I am going to make my decision for the rest of the hand right here. Two ways to go about it. First is to lead for 60% again. This is a line I take quite often. I have position, so I can ceck behind on the river and this gets a few more $ in the pot when they are drawing. If I get raised here, well, now I've got a decision. Most likely a fold, but not always. Second, I can check, planning to snap off a pot sized bluff on the river (see why I don't like the preflop raise?). Of course the river card and player will have a lot more of an impact if I take this route.

River: I'm probably checking behind, even if I hit two pair or trips. The ace/nine acts as a scare and makes it nearly impossible to get action from a hand that you beat. I will bet the pot on occasion, improved or not, to help cover my bluffs and enhance my image.

Where this hand can get really interesting is on the flop when you get miniraised. Typically, if someone miniraises me, I just go ahead and reraise, double what they've put out there so far (I bet 20, they raise to 40, I make it 80 total). This move is much more stack dependant than it is card dependent. Got to have enough behind that they fear playing for the rest of thier chips AND doesn't look too suspicious if you fold to a push. That is another reason I don't like the raise preflop. If you raise preflop, people will try and check raise anything, and this puts you in a position of comminting too many of your chips, even when they only miniraise you.

[cero_z]

Hi rw,

Thanks a ton for your excellent reply. Your thinking on the flop and especially the turn is almost exactly in line with mine; I tend to take the "bet 60% pot on the turn, check behind on the river," line on draw-heavy boards, but I wondered if the greater aggressiveness online would lead to me getting raised too often. I would tend to bet more often on the river if I checked the turn and then improved, but maybe this is wrong for the reasons you mentioned.

I'm definitely surprised by how nearly everyone has said not to raise in this spot pre-flop. I'll have to rethink it. This is a no-brainer for me in a live game, and it seems to work out very well; I think my people skills must make having position a lot more valuable in a live setting.

Anyway, thanks again for your response. If anyone else wants to chime in, please do, even if it's just to tell me again not to raise pre-flop, or that I don't have people skills [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

[cero_z]

Hi sevensuits,

You're obviously in the majority about the correct action pre-flop, so I'm going to seriously reconsider my approach with this type of hand.

As far as this goes:
[ QUOTE ]
You tried to win 3 1/2 BB and now your risking your whole stack with a Pair of nines.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not. I might; it depends on some factors that I must consider. But on the turn, I've invested only a little money (less than 15% of my stack), with a hand that's the best most of the time on each street. This can only be so bad. I'm definitely ABLE to check it and dump it on the river, or bet it and dump it to a raise, etc.; I'm just trying to figure out IF that's right to do in this spot.

Thank you for your response; it's given me a lot to think about.