How good is KK preflop?

soko · #1 02-04-2005, 04:31 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 9 handed) converter

UTG ($29.77)
UTG+1 ($25)
MP1 ($113.4)
MP2 ($9.55)
MP3 ($21.75)
Hero ($25)
Button ($30.9)
SB ($40.4)
BB ($37.55)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.5. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $1.5, 1 fold, SB (poster) raises to $3.75, 1 fold, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $11.5, SB raises to $19.75, Hero calls $13 (All-In), SB calls $5.

Flop: ($51) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($51) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($51) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $51

Either way I look at it I would have to be all in on the flop right? I don't think I did anything wrong but just want to make sure. I had just recently sat at the table so I don't know anything about the guy.

PoBoy321 · #2 02-04-2005, 04:37 AM

Without reading the actual post and just responding to your subject, the answer is second best.

After looking at the hand, when the SB raises to 19.75, at that point, alarms must be going off in your head and against a typical opponent, I expect aces and pay it off.

TheWorstPlayer · #3 02-04-2005, 04:40 AM

There has been a lot of discussion on here about playing KK preflop. You might want to look at Soah's thread on the Mid-/High-stakes forum on this exact same scenario which was just posted very recently. The general idea, especially when you have position, is that you don't want to put in the third raise with KK. If he has AA, he will come over the top and you won't lay down, so you are guaranteed to lose the maximum. If he has QQ or JJ, he will fold and you won't make any more money out of him. Therefore, the third preflop raise with KK guarantees you to lose the most when you are behind and most likely makes you win the least when you are ahead. Also, if you just call his re-raise and an ace hits on the flop, you may be able to get away from AA or AK whereas you would have lost it all if you went all-in preflop.

If you had just called the re-raise, then there would be about $8 in the pot and you would have ~$21 left. If he bets the pot on the flop, which is likely given that he has already shown so much aggression preflop, then you can raise all in. That way you will make at least another pot-sized bet from QQ/JJ/TT/whatever other garbage people re-raise with in online SSNL. Maybe he will even call your all-in with QQ or JJ now that he has another $8 in the pot. You will still lose your whole stack to AA which is fine (basically never fold KK preflop at these stakes) but you want to make sure that you get as much as possible out of QQ and JJ and your play didn't do that.

soah · #4 02-04-2005, 04:59 AM

I suspect that people at PP NL25 are going to fold QQ/JJ to a reraise just about never... someone please correct me if that's not the case.

soko · #5 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

That's what I was thinking too Soah, you see alot of all-ins with garbage like 88 around these levels so I don't think I am scaring any JJ or AK out by my re-raise however right after the hand I was wishing I just called because I might have been able to find a reason to fold on the flop (which I wouldn't have this time).

TheWorstPlayer · #6 02-04-2005, 05:24 AM

First of all, I don't see that as being a reason for making the wrong play. They aren't going to fold QQ/JJ on the flop either. And on Party NL25, people re-raise with hands a lot worse than AA/KK/QQ/JJ. And some of them will fold A4s to a push preflop while they will still bet the flop (and probably call the push on the flop once they have that much invested).

mythrilfox · #7 02-04-2005, 05:56 AM

I asked about 3-betting KK awhile back. It didn't seem right considering how short party's stacks are. The consensus was that this rule is generally against decent opponents and with much deeper stacks. Under certain circumstances (i.e. much of Party) it *is* correct to 3-bet.

Don't just go saying it's the wrong play cause you read it in Ciaffone. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

AAallin · #8 02-04-2005, 06:47 AM

The theory says "Allways raise and re-raise with KK" in most times its ok bcoz only hand y fear is AA and only AA . Ak does not matter becoz you have him domineted. I allways would bet KK allin preflop in case if pot is 2 way. If ther are other raise and re raise and all in i would look at my stack and oponents stack adn only then decide. In this case i think you playd good, like you should play KK.

TheWorstPlayer · #9 02-04-2005, 08:17 AM

I definitely re-raise it, and I would definitely push if it were not a huge overbet and I were out of position. But in position, with somewhat deep stacks, I think it is a mistake to re-re-raise it for the reasons that I have mentioned. I don't think it is a big mistake at NL25, but even at NL25 once you have $100 on the table, you might want to know how to bust that other $100 stack, and that is not by making that play, in my opinion.

kurto · #10 02-04-2005, 04:26 PM

"I suspect that people at PP NL25 are going to fold QQ/JJ to a reraise just about never... " I play PS, but I'm sure its similar. And I'm thinking, they probably shouldn't.

Last Night there's a raise in front of me (3xbb), I reraise with pocket Qs (12xbb), I get reraised all in by the SB and the original raiser also goes all in (another few bucks for me). I think for a second... one of these guys has to have aces or kings, right? At the showdown we saw one of them had KJ and the other had KQ.

Its real easy to give players too much credit.