KQo flop decision

[Nate tha' Great]

Party 15/30.

A loose player (37/17/1.6) raises UTG. Two complete unknowns cold call. I call in the BB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

The flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

What is my plan and why?

[ErrantNight]

check because you can trap the field for a value raise and your equity is high?

i can also see betting, hoping for a raise to thin the field and potentially free up some overcard outs.

i think i'd prefer to have the unknowns around for some equity since i figure i need to improve to win.

edited to remove one sentence of idiocy.

i still dunno if checking with intention of raising, checking with the intention of calling, or betting is best here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i'm more inclined revisiting a few minutes later to think that betting is the worst of the 3, though.

[btspider]

check-call.

a bet will be raised and a check-raise will be 3-bet fairly often. both may isolate you against a better hand.

a check-call sets up a turn check-raise when you improve*, so you can put $$ in the pot when you have the best of it. straights are much more deceptive than flushes in this regard.

this seems too easy, so i must be wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

* the main concern is he may not bet AK when a 9 comes on the turn. he could have AJ/AT often enough with his PFR to offset this. if he loves raising 77-99, there could be issues as well. hmm..

[Jonny Melon]

Interesting post.

Obviously, you are not folding here.

So we can:

1) Bet out.
The idea is that you are either "cleaning up your outs" by inducing the cold-callers to fold to UTGs probable raise, possibly getting a better hand (such as a middle pair) to fold. I don't like this line, since it's unlikely you have the best hand going in, and you are more worried about your outs being dirty to the raiser than you are to the cold-callers. (Unless you know the cold-callers would only come in with solid hands; which you don't)



2) Check-call.
If it goes check, bet, call, call, and you decide to call, I think you are missing out on a lot of equity with a big draw and lots of outs.

3) Check-Raise for value (given UTG bets). This is what I would do. This is a good opportunity to jam the pot. Given the backdoor draws, straight draws, and up to 3 clean overcard outs (I doubt you have 6), I would C/R if UTG bet and only one cold-caller came along for the ride.

Jon

[admiralfluff]

I don't know the 15/30 game, but the 2 CC make me think a bet here is bad. The LAG will likely raise a bet, but of likely cold calling hands you can be worried about (AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ) do you really think any will fold here? All a bet into the LAG will do is get rid of hands you want to call, like lower PPs and other weird stuff. I think you check, let the LAG bet, let all hands call him, amd go for the easy check raise if you hit on 4th. Is this an easy check raise against your typical 15/30 LAG?

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]

3) Check-Raise for value (given UTG bets). This is what I would do. This is a good opportunity to jam the pot. Given the backdoor draws, straight draws, and up to 3 clean overcard outs (I doubt you have 6), I would C/R if UTG bet and only one cold-caller came along for the ride.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with check-raising this flop is that the PFR will 3-bet often and drive out other players.

I check-call, planning on check-raising a 9 and betting an A.

[Poker Chief]

I think you should check call. You do have an OESD, but I think that atleast a couple of your outs (A's) are in the hands of the PFR and cold caller. Also, by check calling, you may be able to trap the field for two bets on the turn if you hit. Also, the board is 2 flushed, but you have the K, so I think you want to have callers going into the turn.

[btspider]

i want to add to mine that i think cleaning up overcards is overrated in this hand. if we are dominated by the PFR or reverse dominated by a cold-caller, they will not be folding the flop. if we are not dominated, then our overcards are already clean.

[Lmn55d]

yup. Check-call.

[Perseus]

I too think you get your best value out of the simple check-call. I think trying to get cute on this flop will limit your value if you do hit your straight, and it is very likely your overcard outs are no good.

Som typical hands people cold call with are J10s, JJ,TT, even QQ for a passive player, and when you add in the UTG raise, there is a very good chance you need your straight to take the pot.

By check-calling you can trap, as was previously mentioned, and get the most value when you make your hand.