Folded around to you in SB w/KK Raise or Call?

[BoogieDown]

This situation happens every once in a while and in the past, 100% of the time my action would be to raise since I would hope that the BB would most likely put me on a blind steal (especially since I would usually have an aggressive image on the table) and at least call me or hopefully reraise.

My opponent for this hand was tight passive preflop, which made me rethink my approach. Are you better off calling in some situations since you are such a big favorite preflop and you are afraid that the BB might fold, but risk the BB hitting something strong on the flop? Or should you just flat out raise for value and hope that the BB calls or plays back at you?

If you do call sometimes, at what point would you raise to "protect" your hand from overcards assuming you have a PP? 99? 1010?

Something else to consider is that observant opponents would think something is fishy if you limp rather than raise.

I would also think that these situations would occur more often as you move to higher stakes games.

Thoughts?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Final Pot: 1.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. Hero wins 1.50 BB. </font>

[stillbr]

(amost)Always raise. Your not giving him a chance to make a mistake if you let him in free. Im sure people can think of situations when you could limp, (trying to induce someone to get too tricky/bluff or somthing.) but at least 90% of the time you need to raise here.

[adamstewart]

Raise.

100% of the time, this looks like a "blind steal attempt." (It's really good when the BB takes offence to that and tries to defend).

Adam

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Something else to consider is that observant opponents would think something is fishy if you limp rather than raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

When it's folded to me and I'm in the SB, I don't really consider it a raise-or-fold situation. I complete in that spot with some hands (such as Q8o) I wouldn't limp with from any non-blind position. So I don't really think a limp will look suspicious.

That said, I think raising with your kings is probably best against most 2/4 opponents. Against someone who doesn't defend very often though, I think limping with kings has its merits. (And, incidentally, against such an opponent I would probably raise with the Q8o I mentioned before.)

Anyway, I'm not really sure exactly what my completing standards should be in this spot, so I'm hoping someone else will step in and comment (or that they have already, while I've been typing).

[BoogieDown]

Can you explain what the merits are of completing w/Q8os in the SB?

It's a marginal hand at best versus an unknown hand, so if I was going to play it, I would raise it as a steal attempt versus a tight BB and to put pressure on him to hit the flop if he was going to call. If the BB is loose, I would toss it. There is no need playing a hand like that out of position especially if you aren't taking the initiative preflop.

Additionally, if I was in the BB, and someone completed and I had a semi-decent hand (let's say any high Ax, PP, or two paints), I would raise you since you are showing weakness by not raising.

I consider it a raise or fold situation 99% of the time (unless it's a big PP which ties into the original question).

[dblgutshot]

I find that many players play their blinds the same way everytime when its folded to the blinds. For example, some players will always raise their SB if its folded to them. Some players will always defend their BB to a SB raise, some will always muck (with garbage/questionable hands). Some will simply check and play the hand accordingly, folding if they miss the flop and you bet.

If you can establish decent reads on what the player on your left will do, it becomes pretty easy to win these hands because BB will be pretty predictable in his play. Will also allow you to steal easier or trap easier.

Of course, it gets hard to get these reads sometimes because new players are joining the game in that position. Also, if its folded to the blinds often enough for you to get a good read on this, I suggest you find a new table! haha

[Harv72b]

Point: If BB is going to fold to your PF raise, he will most likely fold to your flop bet if you only complete (unless, of course, he has improved his chances to beat you, or possibly jumped ahead).

The only instance I can think of where it would be better to complete first in vs. raise is if you know that the BB will raise 100% of the time if you only complete, but will fold to your raise more often than he will 3-bet it. That's an awfully specific read to tack onto anyone.

[Nick C]

In the 2/4 blind structure, I am getting 3:1 on my initial call, so that's why I want to play Q8o against a random hand. (I believe Q8o is considered an average hand, versus a random holding. I actually complete with worse than that, sometimes -- especially if I think the BB is a poor player.) There's a good chance neither my hand or BB's is a significant favorite preflop. However, I am out of position, and if BB is unlikely to fold (and also will continue on the flop without hitting it very hard), and might even react to a preflop raise with a 3-bet, then I don't really want to put in a lot of bets preflop. I'd rather see whether I flop a pair or not before deciding how much to invest.

If you raised my Q8o with your ace-rag from the BB (as I would), then I would call. And if I flopped an 8 or a queen, you'd have a hard time getting rid of me, and in fact what I'd probably do on the flop is either bet into you or checkraise. (Against an aggressive opponent such as yourself, I'd probably checkraise, but it would depend in part on what the rest of the board looked like.)

So that's my thinking. In no way am I an expert on blind-versus-blind play, though, and in fact if there's a lot of that going on at the table, I tend to leave it and find another one -- unless my full table has gotten short-handed, and I think I have an edge versus the remaining player(s).

[BottlesOf]

Just fold. You know an ace is gonna flop anyway.

[ThisHo]

The problem I see with limping here is that you are going to lead out on the flop anyhow, right? Pretty much no matter what (possible exception that an A hits, but even then I think you have to lead and see what BB does). So by limping you give the villain a chance to catch before he has to call a raise. I'd rather have them think I'm stealing and reraise with a lesser hand.
I think that raising most of the time when its folded to me in the SB is the right play (exceptions for very loose calling stations that refuse to allow their blinds to be stolen.. then I raise with good cards only). Let the BB figure out what he wants to do against a raise. It doesn't happen often, but I pretty much raise, reraise, lead the flop and I might even 3-bet the flop if I'm raised there (though usually by this point I have the good sense to fold unless I've got legit holdings). I just prefer to make the BB decide if he wants to play it or not.

The argument for just limping in the SB is that you give your opponent a chance to hit 2nd best hand and pay you off.

I just prefer to make the raise figuring that I'll get it folded to me in the SB more often with rags than with monsters so I'll make more raising and taking the BB most of the time than I will limping and trying to get 2.5 more big bets from him.

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]ThisHo! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]