A Few Simple Beginner Questions

[sthief09]

- what level should I be starting out at? I'd say I'm willing to spend $1000-2000 (preferably somewhere closer to the lower bound) in expectation in tournaments. That is, if I enter a $50 buy-in tourney where my expectation is win back $30, then I consider that as having a $20 opportunity cost for learning, and I'd be willing to play 50-100 such tournaments (at which point, I'd assume I would start getting the best of it).
- what books should I be reading? I've read the Ciaffone/Reuben book and TPFAP, which I assume I should read again. I've heard mixed reviews about Championship NL Tournaments, so I haven't gotten that yet. I'll go out and get anything else you recommend (#1 being HoH).
- Do you have any good threads bookmarked that I should be reading?
- Should I start playing SnG's to get a feel for NL tourneys?

it's worth noting that I have little NL experience but I will be making a big effort to improve

[Chief911]

Hey,

Since I've gotten alot from your posts in the HL Limit forum, I'll do my best.

First, reread TPFAP. It simply is the best book out there.

Second, I would say one of the best posters in the tournament forum was eMarkM when he posted frequently. You can review a ton of his posts if you want. Here are two that I keep bookmarked.

eMarkM on Stealing

eMarkM on Tournaments

There are a number of good ones by Fossilman, as well as Davidross as he was learning tournaments.

Then just get in there and go for it. For learning guality, nothing can beat the Pokerstars 11+rebuys tournament. TONS of play in that tournament. It was the tournament that took my game up a level and helped me learn alot of concepts (I'm still learning). The Party $30 or $50 tournaments are good as well.

Post hands. Just like limit. Except you'll find yourself getting probably a larger variation of discussion here than you do there. Tournament is so much less technical in nature.

Hows that for a start?

Nick

[Chief911]

I wouldn't play SNG's for tourney experience. Now they serve a purpose, and do a good job of emulating (Later in the SNG) a final table atmosphere, as well as valuable SH and HU experience in a NL arena. But spend time first learning the beginning of tournaments.

Nick

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hey i'm with sthief here and i am a relative newbie to MTT's, and i'd love to improve my game too.

i have a lot of NL cash game experience and am a fairly solid SNG player up to the party $50+5 level, though i've played in only a handful of MTT's only making the money barely at the bubble, but no final tables for me.

that descrption probably doesn't say anything at all about my ability to learn MTT's or not, but i'm open to all sorts of suggestions and helpful hints. thanks.

[partygirluk]

1) Learn the correct definition of opportunity cost [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
2) Don't buy the Cloutier books. They really suck.
3) SnGs will help your MTT game. However, they will certainly help some parts more than others, and they require different strategies. Bubble play is of paramount importance in SnGs, but less so in MTTs. However, the early stages of a SnG would be similar to a MTT. If you want to use STTs as a more expidient way of learning MTT strategy, I would recommend mid~high stakes SnG on Stars. Lower stakes means that 3 people will bust out in the first two levels, and you already have to be taking the bubble into consideration. The stars SnGs also have more play than Party, which again descended into bubble time too rapidly to be useful for MTT.
4) Nick suggested rebuys. Something like a $5 or $11 rebuy would be good idea, because it gives you lots of play, and decent prizes, but bear in mind that rebuys are different from normal MTTs (deeper stacks, and less consideration of going broke).
5) Playing a NL ring game will also improve your results.

[woodguy]

Hey stheif09,

Like the Chief, I have learned a lot from your posts in regards to limit.
Read everything that Chief mentioned, its all good.

The biggest differences to understand in moving from limit ring to NL tourneys are: (I'm sure a lot more can be added to this little list, I hope other do)

1) Effects of escalating blinds - this generally makes it necessary to change gears a few times in a tourney, depending on your stack compared to blinds, your opponents stack compared to blinds, and how this affects the table.

2) Folding Equity - Jason Strassa once said that "NL is all about folding equity", understanding the implications of that really helped my game. In a tourney folding equity has even larger effect than in NL ring due to "you're broke, you're done" consequences.

3) Heightend importance of position in NL - position is often more important that your cards in an NL tourney, playing position well often is the difference between good and very good players

4) Stealing - the life blood of tourneys. Stealing to keep your stack healthy until you get a good opportunity to add significant amount of chips is paramount to a good showing.

5) Short stack play - playing with 10BB's or less will happen in every tourney and playing the short stack well is mandatory (espcially online) for consistant results. Knowing how to play against short stacks and the range of hands that they will play also is important.

Not to blow too much smoke up anyones ass, but Sossman, MLG, Adanthar, MBE, Fnord, fnurt, Che, EMarkM, Lloyd, Gergery, schwza, Jason Strassa, and cferejohn all have a good understanding of NL tournies and how to take all the variables into consideraton, read their posts.

SnG's are good in that you get some short handed and HU NL experience.

If you have $1000-$2000 to play MTT's, I would keep to $20-$50 MTT's, as well as playing in some satelittles to the bigger tournies.

HoH is gold, TJ Cloutier's advice is a little too weak-tight for me.

Good Luck!

Regards,
Woodguy

[daveymck]

Not a tournie expert but I reckon HOH is the first read, it sets things out in a uncomplicated easy to understand way, then go for Sklanskys book I suspect that will be easier to read after HOH.

My suggestion as well is maybe play a site where the tournies have smaller fields 80-200, the money isnt as good when you win but you should find that more often you are getting the full tournie life cycle a lot more often, and they take shorter so experience stacks up more and will not take as much time out of your cash game.

Everyone seems to love the $10 rebuy but its one I really struggle in mainly cos the rebuy period is a whole skill in itself, my view is get experience in standard freeze outs then look at rebuys, although you may be the exception as you can be loose and agressive naturally so you may even be more suited to the rebuy.

I havent been reading small stakes recently but one area you may need to focus on is dicipline and patience, ie not getting bored and playing a loose hand cos you are bored, one bad hand can wreck a load of hours work, save that for your cash games [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a tournie expert but I reckon HOH is the first read, it sets things out in a uncomplicated easy to understand way, then go for Sklanskys book I suspect that will be easier to read after HOH.

[/ QUOTE ]

i haven't read TPFAP yet, but from what I've seen of reviews, people seem to think HOH is stronger. Have I been listening to the wrong people? I figure I should read it anyway, just curious...

[SossMan]

some pretty good advice here. that is all.

[fnord_too]

Random thoughts to add..

I didn't see Harrington's book on the list. That is a very good early read.

As to what tournies to play, I think playing in 10 or so low buy in tournies (say <= 20) would be a good start. You can really begin to see how tournament theory plays out.

Play is worse at the low levels, but not by as much as you would think. (That is a reflection on how bad play at the higher levels is, not how good it is at the lower levels).

Make seperate limit and no limit databases in pokertracker and use the game time window (with auto import if you can swing it) while playing. On party, open up tables 1-3 in the tourney (if you are only playing one tourney there at a time).

Most of your decisions in tournies are far simpler than in ring games due to the escalating blinds and the fact that you cannot add chips (well, after the first hour if you are in a rebuy). Early on, you can play a lot more speculatively (i.e. speculative hands passively pre flop, and even post flop to some degree). Later on, almost always raise if you are first in.

Don't be affraid to push small edges early in a tournament. The cost of getting knocked out goes up as the number of players drops.

Start playing in the KotZ tournies (I like them, and I want more people to play! They are every three weeks, and on the order of $30 with a $1 fee).

If you want to play a variety of tournies (different games, different structures), definitely check out stars offerings. I like limit tournies (game doesn't matter as much to me), and I can find a couple or three to play simultaneously there when I set aside time to play tournies.

Flood the forum with hands you are unsure about. Don't get frustrated if no one comments on a given hand.

If you have the time, once you get your feet wet, watch good tourney players with different styles to get a feel for how that style looks when played.