Checking down between friends... illegal or immoral?

[otnemem]

I was playing 1-2 NL at the Trop. There are like eight limpers and I raise to $20 from the BB with queens. Two call. The flop is A-J-10. Check, check, check. The turn is a duck. I check, left of me bets $25 and his buddy behind him calls. I'm pretty sure I have the best hand but let it go, because I had just won a $450 pot and didn't want to make a hasty mistake. I fold. As the river's coming out, the guy behind me turns to his friend and says, "do you want to just check it down?" and his buddy shrugs and nods. They check it down. One of them had paired their 10, the other the jack. Is this collusion on their part? Should I have said something? If he hadn't verbalized it, I wouldn't have even thought of it. But the fact that he asked out loud got me thinking that maybe I should have called the floor to at least warn the guy...

[Tom Bayes]

I don't like this at all. If you go to the cardroom with your friend or spouse and you aren't willing to play real poker against them, then you shouldn't sit at the same table no matter what.

That being said, the one time I ran into a situation like this (in a $5/$10 limit holdem game), I didn't say anything. There was a husband/wife sitting a few seats apart that checked down once it was HU between them. Nobody spoke up to complain because they were both terrible players and we didn't want them to leave.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this at all. If you go to the cardroom with your friend or spouse and you aren't willing to play real poker against them, then you shouldn't sit at the same table no matter what.

That being said, the one time I ran into a situation like this (in a $5/$10 limit holdem game), I didn't say anything. There was a husband/wife sitting a few seats apart that checked down once it was HU between them. Nobody spoke up to complain because they were both terrible players and we didn't want them to leave.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the point of paying the rake if you're taking your money to the same house?

I use this to my advantage. If you get chatty with seomone, sometimes they'll ask you if you want to check it down (and it can be very advantageous if you're drawing or something).

and if you have a hand, just say something like, ah ... I have to bet it, or something like that, they'll be cool with that too.

And between friends, you can do what you want at the poker table.

It's a different story if they fall into a classic collusive operation, but it's not likely in this case, or many 'check down' cases.

No big deal.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

It's a very fine line. On the surface, you could ask what's the big deal if they're the only ones left in the pot and it's all going to the same house anyway. That's all fine and good if it's genuinely innocent. Dig a little deeper, however, and you should be able to see where it gets a little more hazy. These two could rest assured that they've each got one fewer person to bet off a pot and still effectively take the money home, as well as twice the chance of a winning hand. It's one step away from straight-up jamming the pot collusion.

To make it fair, you have to draw a line somewhere that it's clear and consistent. For me, the line is set at the point where once you do anything strategically differently because it's your friend/spouse/sibling/whatever, it's wrong.

[junkmail3]

Yeah, but in this case, they risked $25 more. Hero isn't trapped at any point. He's last to act, and could put them all in (to which they would fold with their hands).

Because it's a bet-call and not a bet-raise, it's less shady to me.

But I do see your point, and it is getting hazy.

But when I'm next to some player, and I raised 9s preflop, got called in four places, flop comes KKx bet the flop late, get called behind and two in front fold, and the player to my left asks if I want to check it down, because we've been chatting it up ... I'll gladly accecpt. (She had TT and won, but I would have folded to any turn bet)

So, that's why it's fine to me. Because I'd take advantage when a player offers. I try not to play at the same table with good friends and my wife doesn't play.

If I make friends at the table I never offer to check down, but I'll let them offer it.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I use this to my advantage. If you get chatty with seomone, sometimes they'll ask you if you want to check it down (and it can be very advantageous if you're drawing or something).

and if you have a hand, just say something like, ah ... I have to bet it, or something like that, they'll be cool with that too.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ill assume, in fairness, you give all your opponents this much air.

[ QUOTE ]
What's the point of paying the rake if you're taking your money to the same house?


[/ QUOTE ]

What if the max rake was already taken? Then what? Same argument since the money is going to the same house?

It sucks to go to a new room, see players doing this, then playing you hard when it's just you and them. I see this all the time and it blows.

Ill take the easy way as Ive always done. Ill play 'em all hard. Then there's no question about it. I don't care who it is or how they know me. They pay the same price.

b

[Zez]

I hate it when friends soft-play each other and never do myself, but even not soft-playing a friend can lead to accusations:

Last month I was at a live 4-8 table with a friend. Being tight 2+2ers we weren't in many hands together, but we finally were -- I had AA he had JJ. Capped before the flop between us with 2 calling stations along for the ride. Flop is stupendous AJ9. Capped again with 2 calling stations. By the river it's fullhouse over fullhouse. One of the calling stations who called all the way with TT accused us of colluding.

[BottlesOf]

I vote "retarded"

[AviD]

I agree

[lapoker17]

You have to bet that flop with your queens.