Weird hand with a small dose of strategy

[lstream]

Last week, I posted a hand where I had aggressivley bet rolled queens - the consensus seeemd to be that I should have been less aggressive. Well, last night it was like I was being tested with trips. I got rolled queens again, and ended up losing to some guy who hit a gut shot straight on the river. Then I had trip 2's on fourth, bet strongly and two opponents made trips on the river - Queens and tens. I was about to swear off trips, and along comes this hand. I have included results, because the interesting thing to me is what they ended up having, and how they played it. I guess I am also looking for input on the fifth street check, and other early streets as well.

This was a particularly tight table. Seat 1 and seat 5 are tight, careful players, especially seat 1.

Empire 3/6 7 handed

seat 1 : XXX XX J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 2 : XXX XX 10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___FOLD
seat 3 : XXX XX 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 5 : XXX XX 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 6 : XXX XX 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___BRIN
seat 7 : A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 8 : 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___FOLD


4th

seat 1 : XXX XX J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___CHECK
seat 3 : XXX XX 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___CHECK
seat 5 : XXX XX 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___CHECK
seat 6 : XXX XX 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___CHECK
seat 7 : A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___CHECK

5th

seat 1 : XXX XX J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___CHECK
seat 3 : XXX XX 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___CHECK
seat 5 : XXX XX 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___CHECK
seat 6 : XXX XX 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___CHECK
seat 7 : A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___CHECK

6th


seat 1 : XXX XX J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 3 : XXX XX 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 5 : XXX XX 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___CALL
seat 6 : XXX XX 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___FOLD
seat 7 : A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___BET

Here is where the slow play pays dividends. Of course everyone expects me to bet the open pair of aces, after the prior rounds of checking. No one should be the wiser.

7th

seat 1 : XXX XX J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] XX___RAISE___CALL
seat 3 : XXX XX 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] XX___FOLD
seat 5 : XXX XX 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] XX___RAISE___CALL
seat 7 : A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___BET___CAP

Results in white below

<font color="white"> Seat 1 Jd Js Jc 4s 9d 5d Qs. Seat 5 5c 2s 3c 6d 4h 9h Jh So we had seat 1 with rolled jacks who was slow playing too. I can't be sure about Seat 5 and his straight, since the cards may have been shuffled. If he had the straight after 5 cards, then it's really odd that he didn't raise on 6'th</font> The table really came alive with chat after that hand - lots of fun.

[Warchant88]

With your hand, I'm probably betting out on 5th. If I'm the guy with that low straight, I'm betting it out on 5th when I hit it. And I'm raising 6th. I'm surprised the guy with the jacks didn't bet on 5th or raise 6th.

[bigredlemon]

I remember reading about the exact same situation in TOH. It basically says that even if you have a killer hand, it's better to bet early than bet late. Soemone else might have a great hand and cap it down all the streets. With this many people in the pot, I wouldn't even feel comfortable giving free cards. Granted everyone is showing crap, but slowplaying too long could mean you're drawing slim by the time you get action.

You only want to non-optimally if you think the extra action you get from acting deceptively will be worth it. Checking that many streets, it doesn't look like it. By then, they already know if they have a hand they can see the river with and aren't going to give you anymore chips unless its to your detriment.

[lstream]

I was really hoping that someone was going to bet on 5'th, and was suprised that it went all the way around again. I wasn't sure to feel better or worse, once I saw my 6'th street card. If the opponents did not have the type of hands they did, then my sixth street ace would very likely knock most if not all of the remaining players out, if I had bet fifth. Sixth street must have looked relatively innocent, but on the other hand how often do you turn rolled trips into quads?

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Raise 3rd, nobody is folding after putting in 1. So your throwing away 2BB at least.

I would probably check/call 4th at 3/6. At higher levels checking might set of some alarms or convince them your on a heart draw that blanked. Of course any action on 5th when you catch another blank and they are going to think trips and only give you action if they can beat that.

Bet/Raise on 5th. Checking 5th is awfull.

Some things to think about.

A) You need to work on your reading skills if seat 5 is a tight 'carefull' player. His hand is unplayable in his position AND given the number of clubs and connectors out unplayable in LP.

B) You got lucky to not lose this with 4 other players seeing 6th.

C) Most likely both of their hands were shuffled, unless you recieved the hand via email. If you did, then they probably were using the same bad reasoning you did. "If I bet they fold."

C) I would much rather lose a big pot or win a small pot then put all my money in behind a hand I let suckout by checking 3 streets and I'M the one making mistakes trying to chase them down with bad pot odds.

Later,
MarkV.

[lstream]

Mark,

I did receive the hand via e-mail. It shows that Seat 5 made his straight in the first five cards. The e-mail also showed rolled jacks, which is consistent with what player 1 said later in the chat. Are e-mail versions of the hand unshuffled, if the shuffle option is turned on?

Regarding no-one folding their $1 bet - I think this is true most of the time. However, at this table people were doing it consistently. That may help explain why all three of us slow played like this.

I agree that my reading skills could use improving.

[bholdr]

NO FREE CARDS ON 5th! lol. i would've bet 4th too, but you had bad position for those two streets, so i dunno.

i don't think anybody's folding on 4th here, and you want a big pot to keep people in later...

but that straight doesn't look like he hit till 7th. it's a pretty clear check-raise for him if he had it on 6th.

just some thoughts.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

The unshuffledness of email HH from party are always a great debate, I believe they are always unshuffled regardless of how they are shown in the software, but once every few weeks I'll see a HH thats confusing and the emailed hand is even more confusing. I always chalk it up to monkeyness.

Stop being worried about them folding, just limping in with strong hands is the wrong admustment, you need to start raising with weaker hands.

Later,
MarkV.

[7stud]

[ QUOTE ]
I got rolled queens again, and ended up losing to some guy who hit a gut shot straight on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is exactly the situation you want to put your opponents in.

[ QUOTE ]
Then I had trip 2's on fourth, bet strongly and two opponents made trips on the river - Queens and tens.

[/ QUOTE ]
A general rule is: play small trips fast and slowpay big trips. Small trips are always vulnerable to higher pairs catching trips. Also, someone who stays in with a three flush on 3rd street can make a four flush on 4th, and then you have other problems. As Roy West says('7 Card Stud: 42 Lessons'): "The nature of starting with trips is they will either win you a stack, or lose a stack or two."

3rd:
Ahhh...trip Aces--what a great starting hand.

4th:
Check??? You want someone to make 4 to a flush or 4 to a straight for free?

5th:
Check again?? Maybe Seat 6 has four to a flush? Didn't seat 5's possible straight scare you? Giving people free shots to beat you is not the way to approach any betting proposition. There is money sitting in the middle of the table. Your goal is to win it, and straights and flushes are higher than trips.

7th:
What a pretty fireworks display.

'Slowplaying' is when you keep your opponents in the hand in the hopes that they will make a worse hand than yours--not one that will beat you or give them a draw to beat you.

[bigredlemon]

[ QUOTE ]
'Slowplaying' is when you keep your opponents in the hand in the hopes that they will make a worse hand than yours--not one that will beat you or give them a draw to beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]This is needs to be in bold neon on the front of every poker book. (Actually, it pretty much is.)