Stop n go big stack vs very big stack?

Shorty35 · #1 01-25-2005, 02:53 PM

Given the result, I definitely played this suboptimally but I would appreciate critique of my thinking about this use of a stop n go. We are near bubble (63 left 50 paid); I am above average stack, Villan is big stack. I only play to make final tables, so I am willing to gamble at the appropriate times. Villan has been very tight and appears to be solid player. I have shown down solid hands and also have a reasonably tight image. Here is the hand - my thinking follows

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t8620)
UTG (t13927)
UTG+1 (t16070)
MP1 (t5980)
MP2 (t809)
CO (t3160)
Button (t6314)
SB (t7855)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to t2000, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls t1400.

Flop: (t4300) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero calls [t7220] , UTG+1 calls t6620.

Turn: (t10920) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t10920) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t10920

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qh Kh (one pair, queens).
UTG+1 has Ks Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins t10920. 

Preflop I was very close to folding -- didnt want to tangle with the big stack. But given how close we were to the bubble, I figured there was a good chance that he was using his image to steal. I also figured that this was a good chance to become a very big stack if I hit a winner.

I called with the intention of folding if I missed the flop or pushing if it hit. I figured that he might even lay down a big hand this way figuring me for trips or another very big hand. The flush draw was too tempting - and I pushed into his KK (he called instantly).

Apart from my flawed application in this hand, do you think there is any merit to the use of a stop n go as a big stack versus very big stack strategy. Or is there just too much gamble in that? Perhaps later in the tourney is a better time for this type of play?

DVC Calif · #2 01-25-2005, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villan has been very tight and appears to be solid player.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and you put him on a steal from UTG +1 ?!?

I would fold PF out of position and on the bubble.

poolshark · #3 01-25-2005, 03:11 PM

I agree that you should have folded. Big stack is in no position to steal and in no need to risk from early position.

Shorty35 · #4 01-25-2005, 03:15 PM

Honestly, I thought 50% steal, 50% big hand. In my experience, lots of steals come from these early positions at this stage of the tourney...where "getting in the first raise" is perceived to be as important as the hand. (I confess that my gut told me AA or KK and I tangled anyway)

I dont think he calls my push with anything other than KK, AA or a set. This knocks out a large number of hands that could beat me including AK, AQ, AJs, JJ, TT, 99 or a smaller pp.

schwza · #5 01-25-2005, 04:42 PM

playing w KQ out of position against a raiser is bad bad times. just muck pre-flop.

DVC Calif · #6 01-25-2005, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think he calls my push with anything other than KK, AA or a set. This knocks out a large number of hands that could beat me including AK, AQ, AJs, JJ, TT, 99 or a smaller pp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he only call with AA, KK, or a set? Except for the flush draw, there's nothing particularily scary about that flop. I could see 99 to QQ calling your all-in, especially with a big stack.

And if he was on a steal, what could he be stealing with? Possibly Ax sooted? I could see A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] with any other heart, but especially 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], or 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] calling your all-in. That would be the nut flush or draw to the wheel.

If you had a read, then too bad it didn't work out. If your looking for advice, then fold PF to the BIG STACK was it.

Shorty35 · #7 01-25-2005, 05:06 PM

I guess I am trying too hard to rationalize a marginal play but I do think that there are times when a stop n go can be effective between two larger stacks when each has respect for the other's play (as was the case here). I agree that a pf fold is the better long run play; but I did think I had a read on him once the flop hit, assuming he was holding worse than KK. I am pretty sure that he would have folded any of the hands I mention and, if not, I still had the draw. Obviously he wasnt going to lay down KK with that flop.

There also was that LAG devil on my shoulder saying...double up and you're a lock for the final table...a heart is coming!

DVC Calif · #8 01-25-2005, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There also was that LAG devil on my shoulder saying...double up and you're a lock for the final table...a heart is coming!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL - that guy gets around doesn't he. In fact, I can hear him now, "...if you bet it, they will come...if you bet it, they will come...". [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]