Question about card randomness

[RainDog]

I recall reading at a few poker sites that the formula for generating random cards is seeded by user initiated events such as mouse clicks.

I've always been curious as to whether the formulas that sites use generate the cards all at once or one at a time (Is the river card determined at the same time the hole cards are?). Theoretically if the information preceeds the cards, than there is always the possibility that someone could find a way to access that information.

But the real reason I'm interested in this topic is because that age old "woulda coulda hit my flush, trips, straight, whatever" statement would be null and void because the very fact that you did fold the hand and the timing of your folding and mouse clicking changed the cards to come. So you can never REALLY know if you would have hit that flush right? Because even though I realize that the cards that come don't change the fact that a decision was right or wrong, I still always have a tiny little turn in my stomach when I fold a hand that would have won a big pot. However, if my folding changed the very outcome of the cards, then I can just be content to never know.

[obeythekitten]

no major poker room uses any kind of user input to seed its RNG, unless you count the time, which you have zero control over anyway.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
no major poker room uses any kind of user input to seed its RNG, unless you count the time, which you have zero control over anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might wish to find a subject more suitable to your own personal area of expertise before you post absolutes.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
I recall reading at a few poker sites that the formula for generating random cards is seeded by user initiated events such as mouse clicks.

I've always been curious as to whether the formulas that sites use generate the cards all at once or one at a time (Is the river card determined at the same time the hole cards are?). Theoretically if the information preceeds the cards, than there is always the possibility that someone could find a way to access that information.

But the real reason I'm interested in this topic is because that age old "woulda coulda hit my flush, trips, straight, whatever" statement would be null and void because the very fact that you did fold the hand and the timing of your folding and mouse clicking changed the cards to come. So you can never REALLY know if you would have hit that flush right? Because even though I realize that the cards that come don't change the fact that a decision was right or wrong, I still always have a tiny little turn in my stomach when I fold a hand that would have won a big pot. However, if my folding changed the very outcome of the cards, then I can just be content to never know.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's my understanding that NO reputable site determines the board cards at the same time as the hole cards.

i think many sites use a clock to seed the RNG, so the timing of your decisions affects the cards.

so yes, as far as i'm concerned, the age-old "i woulda hit my trips" etc. doesn't work.

[FlFishOn]

AKA Cold comfort for hold'em players

It's a rare day that quantum physics and Hold'em overlap but this is their small area of common ground.

Physics ran into a problem. The act of observing a particle changed the action of the particle leading to Heisenberg stating that (i'm a bit foggy here but you could look it up) the exact position OR the energy of the particle can be measured but not both.This means the particle is not totally defined. By now you're wondering when Hold'em enters into this. Here it is.

There are many sets of possible board cards. There is a set that occurs when you see the flop. There is a set that occurs when you fold. There is no earthly way to determine if these are the same. Your action in the hand changes the event. Live, online, no difference. You will never be able to observe a board that might have occured if you hadn't folded.

It's a little hard to wrap your mind around but the bottom line is easy. If you fold the board you see is not the one you'd get if you'd play.

If you choose to disagree then to prove me wrong all you need to do is to predict the coming board on any hand that you've folded. 2.5M to 1, I'll take that chance.

[nnoobi]

[ QUOTE ]

it's my understanding that NO reputable site determines the board cards at the same time as the hole cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
From Party Poker:
This updated seed is then used for dealing cards during each card dealing round. Cards in all subsequent hands will be dealt using a seed which is completely random and which is completely unrelated to the seed used to deal the previous hands of cards, thus ensuring total randomness and hence, complete fairness.


[/ QUOTE ]

I read Party's explaination as:
We have a good RNG capable of generating all deck possibilities. For each game, we pull a seed from many, many independent and very likely random sources. That one seed completely dictates how each card pulled.

If, by very unlikely chance, that same seed is used in a different game (with the same number of players) - an exact duplicate of hands/board cards will occur.

This way they can audit their process. They simply store the seed with the hand no. information. If they are worried that someone is manipulating the cards dealt, they can re-deal the hand from the RNG by just using the seed.

At least, that's how I'd do it.


rabbit
(might be wrong)

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Your action in the hand changes the event. Live, online, no difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

You were doing quite well till you got here. No cigar awarded for faulty thinking though.

[FlFishOn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your action in the hand changes the event. Live, online, no difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

You were doing quite well till you got here. No cigar awarded for faulty thinking though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't like my logic?

No problem. Design an experiment to prove me wrong. A Nobel prize awaits the completion of this 'easy' task.

[jlpadge21]

You are incredibly wrong here. You are confusing subatomic particles and flat rectangular objects called cards. You have overthought this. Just think about it again, the cards in the dealers hands are changed by you folding or not? In a live game the order of the deck is determined by how the dealer has shuffled the previously set deck. If he didn't shuffle it 8 times, then you may even be able to guess where some of the cards are. Heisenberg's principle does not apply to a deck of cards.

[Adde]

"woulda coulda hit my flush, trips, straight, whatever"

The "woulda coulda" is your friend. It induces more player errors than tilt. Bad thing if mathematics make people change their mind.

Adde