Post #2 - Value betting and calling down LA-Ps - 2 hands

[easypete]

OK... post #2... The value bet and calling down passive players.

For those who missed #1...

Hand #1

The main lesson I learned at 2/4 was to value bet. The big lesson at 3/6 was learn when to fold. The rules have all changed at 5/10 SH. I often find myself with TP or an overpair in a situation where I think I should fold (and would, player dependent at 3/6), but feel I need to call down at 5/10 SH because now, TP and overpairs are much more powerful. I don't know if I've convinced myself of this.

When I first started playing short-handed, I gave my opponents too much credit... Now, I seem not to give them enough credit. The following are 2 typical hands that fit into this.

Hand 1:

<font color="green">Table reads:
UTG - 60/7/1.3 (160 hands)</font>

Party 5/10 6-max (5-handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP w/ K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="red">hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4SB)
<font color="red">UTG bets, hero raises, UTG 3-bets</font> hero calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5BB)
<font color="red">UTG bets</font>, hero calls

<font color="purple">Against a somewhat passive player, am I good 7:2 (3.5:1) for a call down, hoping that I'm not against a 3x, 55, 66, 22, 24, 25, 45, 46, 56? As for the 3's... I don't feel this player would bet out the flop without at least a pair with the draw, so it reduces it to 33, 32, 34, 35, 36, maybe A3.</font>

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7BB)

<font color="red">UTG bets</font>, hero calls



Hand 2:

<font color="green">Table reads:
SB - 46/15/0.8 (195 hands)</font>

Party 5/10 - 6max - 6 handed

Preflop: Hero is MP w/ A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="red">SB raises</font>, BB folds, hero calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7SB)
<font color="red">SB bets</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises, SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6.5BB)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.5BB)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, SB calls

<font color="purple">Again... with a fairly passive player that will call down and a scare card on the turn, what can I beat here? Is the value bet right or wrong?</font>

[wuarhg]

I've been playing some shorthanded myself and in the learning process but I would call these down even if it was a full table. I think both hands look fine, maybe even cap the flop in Hand 1. You aren't including that he could have hands like 77-TT, even JJ and QQ might be possible?

[Victor]

Hi Pete,

Hand 1: I would cap the flop here. Why did you get all passive? Your opp proly puts you on overcards and paired his Ax. I usually cap or sometimes wait for the turn and raise but that scares away some customers.

You definitely missed some bets here. At shorthanded these are the situations where you need to be fearless and maximize your profit. You have a monster for chrissake.

Hand 2: I usually just call the flop here to encourage your opp to keep betting on the turn if he has ak or jj-88. The turn is tricky though, getting checkraised here sucks but so does giving a free card to a high club. I would bet and fold if you have noticed your opponent only checkraises with the goods. A lot of 5-10ers would play an overpair like this or a set of Q's or J's. Against an unknown, or anyone who I have noticed trickery from, I am calling down tho.

It seems you are a little too passive and fearing monsters under the bed as they say. At shorthanded the average starting hand is weaker and so is the average finishing hand, especially heads up. Get out there and beat some heads man.

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Pete,

Hand 1: I would cap the flop here. Why did you get all passive? Your opp proly puts you on overcards and paired his Ax. I usually cap or sometimes wait for the turn and raise but that scares away some customers.

[/ QUOTE ]

My intention here, since I had position, was to raise the turn card. I still felt that I was ahead here, and I was trying to optimize my win. Capping the flop would only get me 1BB on turn... I wanted 2 BB. When the turn hit and made a 4 straight vs a loose player... That's when I got passive...

[ QUOTE ]
You definitely missed some bets here. At shorthanded these are the situations where you need to be fearless and maximize your profit. You have a monster for chrissake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was playing fearless for about 5k hands before this one... In my "fearless" trial period I had a huge negative swing, and now I find myself second guessing my actions. This hand happened well after the -150BB mark.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems you are a little too passive and fearing monsters under the bed as they say. At shorthanded the average starting hand is weaker and so is the average finishing hand, especially heads up. Get out there and beat some heads man.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK... yeah. I don't think I was fearing monsters (not normally my style), but I may have been here a little, because I can't seem to get a handle on the fold/call/raise decision on the turn w/ TP and scary boards. As for my standard line, I would normally play more aggressive than I showed in these 2 hands. I was just using my stats which were telling me these players were passive. Their betting indicated that I was beat in both of these (coming from passive players). If they were aggressive, I would feel that I'm good more than 50% of the time.

Thanks for the reply. I do feel that I'm a little too passive... just trying to find leaks in my game before I start back.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]

Hi Pete,

Hand 1: I would cap the flop here. Why did you get all passive? Your opp proly puts you on overcards and paired his Ax. I usually cap or sometimes wait for the turn and raise but that scares away some customers.


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My intention here, since I had position, was to raise the turn card. I still felt that I was ahead here, and I was trying to optimize my win. Capping the flop would only get me 1BB on turn... I wanted 2 BB. When the turn hit and made a 4 straight vs a loose player... That's when I got passive...


[/ QUOTE ]

Waiting until the turn to raise is a good play especially against a player who cant get away from his hands. Sometimes players will take shots at raised pots when rags flop and especially if they have a pair. Since this guy is passive he proly has something and is not gonna let it go so waiting until the turn is proly the rite play here.

As for checking the turn, since you read him as passive, his flop play indicates a pair of some sort. There is really no indication that he has a 3. He is not gonna make this play with A3. The only hands that you can fear are 43 and 63 (due to his passivity I think we can overrule 23.) However, his play can indicate any pocket pair up to QQ as well as 6x or 2pair. Due to this large range of hands and the fact that you beat 75% (or so) of them this is a definite bet.

As for my percieved passivity of your play I can offer my perspective. See, I usually become passive when I am confused for what ever reason. I say, "well, I got a good hand, but its not the best and I really dont know where I am at so I guess I will just call and hope for the best." The best way to combat this is to improve your hand reading simply because with good hand reading you will have a far better idea of where you are at. Now you can act accordingly and confidently.

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
See, I usually become passive when I am confused for what ever reason. I say, "well, I got a good hand, but its not the best and I really dont know where I am at so I guess I will just call and hope for the best."

[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO on this.

[ QUOTE ]
The best way to combat this is to improve your hand reading simply because with good hand reading you will have a far better idea of where you are at. Now you can act accordingly and confidently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think my reads were about spot on in both of these hands. If I were playing a full ring game, I would have folded the first hand at the turn bet, and played the 2nd hand the same. I'm pretty good at full ring games at reading hands, but feel that with the 6-maxs I need to work on it.

If either of these players had AF's of over 2, I would agree that this was too passive, but they were low AF's. That still means something to me.