Typical AA hand..

lostinthought · #1 01-20-2005, 02:55 AM

Typical AA, any comments?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero raises, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

Moss Factor · #2 01-20-2005, 03:08 AM

I don't like the flop check. The raise preflop then checking the flop always sends warning flags off to me that the player is holding a big big pair (and you are). Giving a free card wouldn't be dangerous to the side that you may give someone a better hand, as the only hands that will improve to beat you that wouldn't call a bet on the flop are pocket pairs (although you may give someone an open-ended strait draw or a flush draw).

However I still would simply bet this flop. Your preflop agression might make a hand like JT or 99 put you on AK and call you down, whereas they would be too afraid to bet into you, being the agressor.

The action on the turn looks like you're up against 6x. The stop and go should alert you to this fact, and I would not have 3-bet. I don't think he plays AJ like this (you can pray), and he would have 3-bet preflop with QQ or KK. Pray for AJ, but expect something like A6s, etc, and get ready for the muck. I think that the extra bet you spent 3-betting the turn should have been spent calling on the river. Honestly, what hands 3-bet there that you're beating? There aren't many, if any.

Bet the flop (and 3-bet if he raises), bet the turn, call the turn CR, and call the river praying to see a very ballsy AJ.

MCS · #3 01-20-2005, 03:37 AM

Try to post any reads you have on relevant players or other game factors.

Absent any info, I lead the flop and I don't 3-bet the turn.

lostinthought · #4 01-20-2005, 03:38 AM

All the advice here seems weak tight. I'll try to explain why

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop check. The raise preflop then checking the flop always sends warning flags off to me that the player is holding a big big pair (and you are).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you obviously know that I am holding a big pair,but does the typical 2/4 player know that? Can't checking here mean more than a big pocket pair, esp. since I am raising pre-flop 10%? Is check-folding or check-calling that atypical here?

[ QUOTE ]

Giving a free card wouldn't be dangerous to the side that you may give someone a better hand, as the only hands that will improve to beat you that wouldn't call a bet on the flop are pocket pairs (although you may give someone an open-ended strait draw or a flush draw).

[/ QUOTE ]

Two outers are two outers. If you are villian here, you pretty much have to bet with anything, unless you put me on AA or JJ. Are you scared of monsters under your bed? No, and neither is the typical 2/4 player. 4/5 times, I think I will get the check-raise in.

[ QUOTE ]

However I still would simply bet this flop. Your preflop agression might make a hand like JT or 99 put you on AK and call you down, whereas they would be too afraid to bet into you, being the agressor.

[/ QUOTE ] You might be right on these three hands, but don't I milk an extra bet from many more hands with my line.

[ QUOTE ]

The action on the turn looks like you're up against 6x. The stop and go should alert you to this fact, and I would not have 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is 6x is he cold-calling with preflop? Secondly, can't more hands
than a 6x do the stop and go here? JJ, AJ, QQ, and less likely KK and AA. Only one of which I am behind, (pretty far behind).

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Bet the flop (and 3-bet if he raises), bet the turn, call the turn CR, and call the river praying to see a very ballsy AJ.

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I assume you meann the turn raise. And there's no reason to pray here.

lostinthought · #5 01-20-2005, 03:40 AM

sorry, should have said, no reads yet.

Although it's probably safe to assume that if I didn't write anything, there is none..

PokeHer · #6 01-20-2005, 03:53 AM

unless the button is a duchebag, you are only losing to JJ. Without reads, the turn 3-bet is dicey since he chose to raise you after you had already check-raised him on the flop. After that raise, it's time to check-call. Say that's weak-tight if you want, but without any reads, who is anyone to say that the button does not have a 6, especially given how he played it- if I had a 6 and was check raised on the flop, I would just call the raise, knowing that I would be bet into on the turn where I could raise for a big bet.

Moss Factor · #7 01-20-2005, 04:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
All the advice here seems weak tight. I'll try to explain why

[/ QUOTE ]
How is telling you to bet out weak-tight? Any Jx is going to raise you there and allow you to 3-bet. If they have Jx, they'll probably only call your CR unless it's AJ or an agressive KJ-- but KJ probably isn't calling your PF raise unless it's suited. You're easilly missing value from check raising and spooking his action.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, you obviously know that I am holding a big pair,but does the typical 2/4 player know that? Can't checking here mean more than a big pocket pair, esp. since I am raising pre-flop 10%? Is check-folding or check-calling that atypical here?

[/ QUOTE ]
If anything the party 2/4 players are weak tight, and whenever someone raises preflop and then checks the flop it just screams strength. Wouldn't you be more inclined to bet if you had missed? You want to get value from hands like JT, J9 and pocket pairs 99-77 that will call you down but not bet into you.
[ QUOTE ]
Two outers are two outers. If you are villian here, you pretty much have to bet with anything, unless you put me on AA or JJ. Are you scared of monsters under your bed? No, and neither is the typical 2/4 player. 4/5 times, I think I will get the check-raise in.

[/ QUOTE ]
My comment about the free card started with the words "Giving a free card wouldn't be dangerous," so I don't think that's looking for monsters. However I don't there there are many hands that would improve on the turn that would call down that wouldn't call a bet on the flop. More clearly, by saying the only hands that improve to beat you on the turn are pocket pairs, I'm trying to show you that any hands that call you on the turn are probably going to call you on the flop. KQ, AK, AQ, AT will all probably see a turn for one small bet and will pay you off if they make their second best hand. These hands will not bet flop however. You get ENORMOUS value from hands that will call a bet on a draw to a second best hand-- exploit this value.

Again, they don't need to be specifically afraid of AA or JJ, they just need to be afraid enough not to 3-bet you. If you give them a chance to raise your flop lead which, being the preflop raiser, could mean a huge range of hands, especially on a board where only 5 cards are out there that someone could have to connect with. By check-raising, you spook any Jx into calling all the way down. The only hands that will give you more action are beating you.

Betting out on the flop has great value because people will call with a huge range of hands because that flop could have EASILLY not hit you. For the range of hands that raises preflop, only AJ and pocket pairs JJ-AA are liking what they see on this flop. Everything else has missed. Your opponents know this and they're going to call you with a lot more stuff than you'd believe. Which is great since the sixes protect you from a random two pair. Just bet out, and hand that would call you on the turn is going to call your flop bet, and any hand that caught a piece of the flop is going to raise you. So why risk losing value by checking?

[ QUOTE ]
What is 6x is he cold-calling with preflop? Secondly, can't more hands than a 6x do the stop and go here? JJ, AJ, QQ, and less likely KK and AA. Only one of which I am behind, (pretty far behind).

[/ QUOTE ]
It's party 2/4, he doesn't need much to cold call a raise preflop. My guess is A6s, which is slightly unlikely due to the fact that two aces and two sixes are gone, but it makes sense and few other 6x hands call preflop. Then again, on the button and for a party 2/4 it really doesn't take much. 76s would not surprise me whatsoever. I don't put him on JJ, QQ, KK, because I'm almost positive it's 3-bet preflop. My guess is 6x, either 56s, 76s, or A6s.

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you meann the turn raise. And there's no reason to pray here.

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Yes I meann the turn raise. I do think there is a reason to pray. You honestly think he caps the pot vs. a preflop raiser that checkraised the flop, lead the turn, and 3-bet a turn raise with that kind of a board? Honestly I think the range of hands that cap there are extremely narrow with almost all of them beating you. The only hand you're beating that I can honestly see him having is AJ. If he's capping with anything else, add that to your notes and extract value later on, because I can't imagine any hand other than QQ or KK (which I can't imagine how it wasn't raised preflop or 3-bet on the flop, if he's playing QQ or KK, he's a serious slowplayer) making that move there.

In all I can't imagine that the number of times he's got 6x is less than the number of times he's got a hand you're beating. Especially due to the cap. When he shows no fear into someone who is displaying as much strength as you have, you're being a fool to ignore it. I'm not looking for monsters, but when he's wearing a sign around his neck saying "I'm either fantastically strong or fantastically agressive" you need to heed to the side of caution.

Simply call his turn raise and check/call the river.

MCS · #8 01-20-2005, 04:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
sorry, should have said, no reads yet.

Although it's probably safe to assume that if I didn't write anything, there is none..

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Yeah, I figured that if you had any you were ignoring them for this hand anyway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

MattC · #9 01-20-2005, 05:20 AM

he probably has jj, some people play jacks this way. they dont reraise preflop because they want to see the flop if overcards come or not. then after you check raise him, he knows hes gonna get a lot of action with his pretty much nut hand so waits the turn to milk you.