Played like a girlie-man? 2-4 party, trip T's

[kem]

Had been at the table for a few orbits. Overall, a tight table -- VP$IP% around 30% from what I could tell. One very loose player (who was not involved in this hand), and a bunch of tighter players. Opponents had VP$IP %'s around 20-30% from my small sample.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: kem is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, kem calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">kem bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls, UTG+1 folds.

Straight-forward flop action. Have to bet it..

Turn: (3.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">kem bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, kem calls, Button calls.

So now I'm check-raised on the turn by the BB. To me, this usually means a monster hand (especially when we're not headsup). If I 3-bet here, I might knock the button out, which I don't think that I want to do. This is the part I'm really not sure about though.. Hard to place the BB on a hand.

River: (9.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, kem calls, Button folds.

So now a 3rd club falls, putting the runner-runner straight and flush on the board. I doubt the BB check-raised a draw on the turn, but who knows. Also a raise here likely knocks the button out. I call, but feel like a girlie-man.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

So what do people think? Not aggressive enough? That was my initial opinion when playing the hand, but I feared a monster from the BB (44, T4, 22, T2, 2 clubs, etc). The more I think about it though, the more I think that maybe playing passively was better, due to the button. If I can keep the button in the hand, I win the same as playing aggressively (if doing so knocks him out), and I lose less when I'm behind. What do people think?

Results to follow.

[chief444]

I 3-bet the turn. I don't see why you would fear you're behind yet.

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet the turn. I don't see why you would fear you're behind yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given a BB w/ VP$IP% of 30%, what hand do you put his check-raise on?

And if 3-betting for sure knocks out the button, would you still 3-bet the turn? If I 3-bet, button folds, BB calls, then BB check-calls the river, then I've won the same amount if I'm ahead, and lost more when I'm behind.

[krishanleong]

You can't know for sure that 3-betting will force out the button. If he is on a draw, he will call on the turn and not on the river. 3-bet the turn.

If you didn't 3-bet the turn, you really should raise the river. Unless the button is an overcalling maniac. But even then you should raise, maybe he'll call two.

Krishan

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Given a BB w/ VP$IP% of 30%, what hand do you put his check-raise on?


[/ QUOTE ]
That tells me nothing about his aggressiveness. But any pocket pair &gt;44, any T with a worse kicker, a pair of 4's with a club draw, just a club draw...who knows. But 44 or T4 are not exactly likely just because of one check/raise. I understand your reasoning but I just think you're way ahead too often here for it to apply.

[spydog]

The BB is more than likely on Tx. You beat this. You must 3-bet the turn. If he caps, I would still raise any non-club river. Don't worry about a monster hand, especially when YOU have a monster hand!

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't know for sure that 3-betting will force out the button. If he is on a draw, he will call on the turn and not on the river. 3-bet the turn.

If you didn't 3-bet the turn, you really should raise the river. Unless the button is an overcalling maniac. But even then you should raise, maybe he'll call two.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you put the button on a draw, but then would raise the river when a scare card falls (completes both draws on the board) ?

[Fat Nicky]

Not 3-betting the turn is criminal. You want to charge anyone with any type of draw. Better yet, a lot of worse hands with call.

[JerseyTom]

3-bet the turn and charge button the max for his draw. If BB has T4, T2, 44 or 22, he'll cap and then you can call one on the river, but you're likely waaaaaayyyy ahead here.

I've seen even obstensibly passive players C/R this turn with stuff like 77-99, hoping to push you off overcards.


Tom

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given a BB w/ VP$IP% of 30%, what hand do you put his check-raise on?


[/ QUOTE ]
That tells me nothing about his aggressiveness. But any pocket pair &gt;44, any T with a worse kicker, a pair of 4's with a club draw, just a club draw...who knows. But 44 or T4 are not exactly likely just because of one check/raise. I understand your reasoning but I just think you're way ahead too often here for it to apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, maybe it isn't the best way to look at things, but in general I equate VP$IP% with someone's affinity for any-2 cards. So someone w/ a VP$IP% of 30%, I'd expect him to fold a flop he missed.. so I take his check-raise much more seriously than someone with a VP$IP% of 50%, for example.