Quick Question about internet Poker play.

[Talk2BigSteve]

Some where back in the past few months I signed up for an e=mail newsletter about poker. The other day the Topic was Common Online Poker Mistakes. One of the Mistakes is as follows:

Mistake No. 2: Using The Auto-Play Functions.

The auto-play buttons are made to
speed up the game. If you use the
auto-play buttons, realize that you
are using them at the cost of your
chips.

Since online poker players are
separated by hundreds of miles, one
of the only "tells" in an online poker
game is the amount of time that a player
takes before acting on his or her hand.

The "Commonly Accepted Formula" is this:

A delayed check = Weakness

Instantaneous call = Strength

Instantaneous check = Weakness

Quick bet/raise on turn or river = Strength

The reason that this formula is so
widely accepted by poker players is
that it holds surprisingly true. The
first tell is simply an understanding
of poker psychology, but the last three
are based on the auto-play buttons.

Think about it: if you have a weak hand
and you click the automatic check button,
you are telling every one at the table
that you have a weak hand.

However, if you take a moment, people must
ask themselves "Are they slow playing it?
Will I be check-raised? How has he played
in the past?"


IS any of that true or is this Roy Monahan just full of BS???

Living, Learning, and Laughing.
Big Steve [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[CountDuckula]

The only autoplay button I use consistently is "Fold" (mostly pre-flop, when I have a hand I know I'm going to muck). I never use "Check/Fold", and rarely use "Check". I will occasionally use the "Bet" or "Raise" buttons, but I try not to be consistent and use them both when I'm bluffing (not often) and when I have the nuts. Most of the time, though, I don't use those at all, because I don't trust myself not to develop an obvious (to everyone else) pattern. And sometimes, if I think that my opponents will react differently to an immediate action (whatever it is) than they will to a delay of any length, I may use it to elicit the reaction I think I'll get (i.e., if I have the nuts, and I strongly suspect my opponents will treat an autoplay as a bluff and a delay as the real deal, or vice-versa, I'll try to choose the method that I think is most likely to get a call or raise).

I also don't assume that my opponents are using their buttons in any particular way, unless I have a ton of evidence that they are consistent. And even then, I'm wary. Sometimes, people are just multitabling or doing something besides playing poker, and their use of the buttons simply means they've made up their minds and don't want to wait for the action to reach them. I think you can get burned by relying too heavily on the "tell".

-Mike

[Fat Nicky]

I think it's BS for the most part. People taking longer than usual to act could mean so many things not related to it being any kind of tell. eg. slow connection, playing 4 tables, browsing the web, taking a dump....

[Art Vandelay]

I use the autoplay buttons pretty much the same way. Preflop the fold button is nice when multitabling. If you're sitting in the CO with 92 you know where it's going.

In regards to reading other players, I also make sure to have lots of evidence of a person using the autoplay buttons before I rely on it as a "tell". Usually I find it's just the maniacs using the bet/raise button to build the pot and getting a read on a guy who caps it with the nuts or with J high isn't going to happen anyway.

[aron]

I use those buttons all the time, maybe at some point this might be a tell but mostly it's because I'm busy thinking about something at another table.
So a delay might be beacause I'm either contemplating my move or that I'm not paying attention to that particualar move.

People using this as tells are left in a complete guessing game of which time it's the one or the other. So in order to try to take advantage of this they are pretty much screwed.

-aron

[Talk2BigSteve]

let me post everything that he said and see what you all thing about each one.

If you play online poker, this may be
the most important newsletter you ever
read...

Take these strategies seriously and
you could quickly and consistently
win more pots from online poker games.

There are seven major (yet easily
correctable) mistakes that both novice
and experienced players make when playing
online poker.

Learn to prevent these mistakes, and
you'll have a competitive advantage
over others...

Mistake No. 1: Getting Distracted.

Poker is a skill game, but it requires
concentration and attention to detail.

When you are distracted, you take your
abilities out of the picture and then
you have to rely on luck.

I know many poker players who play as
many as 5 games online at the same
time. While experienced online poker
players may be able to handle this,
you should focus on one game at a time.

Also, remember that the distractions
that surround you at your home can
ruin your concentration when you are
playing poker.

TV's, radios, and phones all divide
your attention and take your mind off
the game at hand.

While distractions are likely the
most costly mistakes that players make,
they are easy to eliminate...

When you are playing poker, make sure
that you turn off the TV, grab a Coke,
and turn off your phone. This way you
won't be jumping up and down when you
should be concentrating on your game.

Mistake No. 2: Using The Auto-Play Functions.

The auto-play buttons are made to
speed up the game. If you use the
auto-play buttons, realize that you
are using them at the cost of your
chips.

Since online poker players are
separated by hundreds of miles, one
of the only "tells" in an online poker
game is the amount of time that a player
takes before acting on his or her hand.

The "Commonly Accepted Formula" is this:

A delayed check = Weakness

Instantaneous call = Strength

Instantaneous check = Weakness

Quick bet/raise on turn or river = Strength

The reason that this formula is so
widely accepted by poker players is
that it holds surprisingly true. The
first tell is simply an understanding
of poker psychology, but the last three
are based on the auto-play buttons.

Think about it: if you have a weak hand
and you click the automatic check button,
you are telling every one at the table
that you have a weak hand.

However, if you take a moment, people must
ask themselves "Are they slow playing it?
Will I be check-raised? How has he played
in the past?"

Mistake No. 3: Talking Too Much.

Some players think that since they are
online, that talking doesn't serve as a
tell. However, except for using auto-play
buttons, talking serves as the biggest
tell in online poker.

Don't waste your energy taunting or
talking to other players. This will give
players a look into your personality and
therefore your true playing style.

Talking too much also leads into the next
online poker mistake...

Mistake No. 4: Making Enemies.

Making enemies in poker is never a good
idea. If you win a pot, graciously drag the
chips to your pile, but don't say a word.

If you lose a pot to a lucky draw, take it
on the chin and don't whine.

The reason that you don't want to make
enemies is simple... the enemies you make
playing poker will be "gunning" for you.

It is never good to have players who want
you out of a game, because they will be more
likely to make a move against you.

This takes the power out of your hands
because the other players aren't playing FOR
chips, they are playing AGAINST you.

So, keep to yourself, and let the chips do
the talking...

Mistake No. 5: Showing cards.

Showing your cards is rarely a good idea.

Some players claim that it puts other players
on tilt and shakes them out of their game.

However, instead of hurting the other players,
showing your cards usually hurts you and
forces you out of your game.

Remember, that you always want people to
respect your bluffs. So think about this:

You win a huge pot on a stone-cold bluff.
Good for you. You turn over your 7-2 offsuit
to shake up the other players. Now the other
players know your style of bluffing and your
betting method.

A few hours later, you make another move for
a pot by pushing most of your stack into the
pot. Now the players think back and remember
your past bluffs.

This time, they don't fall for it, call, and
you lose your stack.

Finally, players who turn up their cards often
are seen as cocky or rude. This leads to poker
enemies... and we know what that means.

Mistake No. 6: Relying Too Much On Odds.

Many online poker players have downloaded
"odds calculators" that give precise readouts
of the probability of any certain combination
of cards.

These calculators are terrific tools to give
you an idea about the strength of your hand,
but be very wary of putting too much emphasis
on the odds.

Remember that poker is a game of strategy and
numbers, not just a game of numbers. You must
take many factors into consideration when
playing poker, not just the odds that you will
win the hand.

Mistake No. 7: Playing For Too Much.

Never play poker with more than you can afford
to lose. If you have $30 to spare, don't sit
down in a $5-10 limit room.

Anytime that you sit down at a table, be sure
that you can afford to lose the money that you
take with you, and that you have enough money
to play competitively.

If you sit at a table and only bring 3-5X the
big blind, you will find yourself being bullied
and quickly lose your stack.

Also, if you play at a table where you cannot
afford to lose all the money, you will play too
conservatively, and you will quickly go broke.

Living, Learning, and Laughing.
Big Steve [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[aron]

[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 1: Getting Distracted.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lack of attention makes it really hard if it's due to that you are suffering from a hang over or upset or ontherwise not mentally fit.
However, if you have problem whith staying diciplined I think it's great to have something else to do.
Now it was sometime since i singletabled but I found it might be too boring folding so many hands. If I instead had a solitare or something else while waiting I didn't loose up as much.
This is probably very individual.

[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 2: Using The Auto-Play Functions

[/ QUOTE ]
Answered to this already.

[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 3: Talking Too Much

[/ QUOTE ]
As long as it is cheery or humble and has nothing to be with being rude or tablecoaching I think it's a great way to add some fun to the game.

[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 4: Making Enemies

[/ QUOTE ]
The reasoning on this one seems to make sense.

[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 5: Showing cards

[/ QUOTE ]
Never do myself but find it really relieving when someone turns over a full house after I layed down a hand I really liked. Can imagine this it's a much more psycological aspect in no-limit.

[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 6: Relying Too Much On Odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
If we are talking pot odds it seems like a great thing to rely on. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 7: Playing For Too Much.

[/ QUOTE ]
Playing for more than you can afford to lose seems like a nice beginning to a gambling problem.

Just my opinions.
-aron

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
let me post everything that he said and see what you all thing about each one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, fair enough.


[ QUOTE ]
If you play online poker, this may be
the most important newsletter you ever
read...

Take these strategies seriously and
you could quickly and consistently
win more pots from online poker games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tooting his own horn a bit, I'd say.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 1: Getting Distracted.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. And I do it all the time.... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 2: Using The Auto-Play Functions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Already said my piece here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 3: Talking Too Much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I try not to taunt, etc., but if the room is chatty, it helps keep things friendly to chat right along with everyone else. It also keeps them from thinking you're taking the game more seriously than they are, and deciding to focus more. I try to match the level of chat; if it's just "nh", "ty", I follow suit. If there's a lot of, "Hey, where you from?" "What do you do for a living?", etc.; I'll try to keep up my end of the conversation. If everyone else is dead silent, then so am I.


[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 4: Making Enemies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more. I try never to piss other people off (but I have been provoked on occasion).


[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 5: Showing cards.

Showing your cards is rarely a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I basically agree. I'll only show cards if I feel a need to change my table image, and then I'll think it through very carefully. I don't try to put others on tilt, as that tends to backfire.


[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 6: Relying Too Much On Odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. Well, I do think that odds are very important. You have to use your best judgment as to your opponents' tendencies, and evaluate how likely your hand is to be better than theirs. Sometimes, you need to throw in some deceptive play, to keep them from getting too comfortable. But at low limits especially, the odds are your best guideline for deciding how to play a hand. Strategy tends to become more important as the players get better, but when they're playing like monkeys, it's easier to play the odds than it is to put them on a hand or trick them.


[ QUOTE ]
Mistake No. 7: Playing For Too Much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. If you can't afford to lose it, you shouldn't be risking it. While a good player can be a long-term winner, there is always short-term variance to contend with. Sometimes, you get good hands while other players are getting better ones or just having the board hit them better; other times, you might keep paying your blinds, but getting nothing worth playing. Making sure to play with an adequate bankroll that is money you can afford to blow is the best way to ameliorate this.

I'm sure that something I said above is totally off-base, but that's how I think. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-Mike

[dfscott]

There was a guy who posted to 2+2 a while back about how he was so successful using what he called "timing tells," which is this exact same thing. He claimed an insanely high BB/100 over a signficant number of hands, and attributed his success to it.

IMHO, it's BS. I have seen many LAGs auto-raise the pre-flop raiser on a stone-cold bluff. I've also hit check/fold with 22 on a family overcard flop, just to hit my 2 on the free turn card.

As always, YMMV.

(P.S. Haven't seen any posts from the timing tells guy in a while, so either he's continued to be insanely successful and moved up to the high limits or his timing tells have caught up with him.)

[Stupendous_Man]

I'm not going to reply to every point made in the article, but have a few comments. Personally, the only auto button I use is the fold. The vast majority of the time this is preflop when the cards are obvious. But, I'll also use it post flop when I'm in the BB, got the free look, but my 5-2o missed everything. If someone bets after me, I'll click the fold button. I don't recall using any of the other buttons, even if I know exactly what I'm doing when it's my turn to act. I've seen this discussion in other articles, books, etc., but don't follow it. Saw something, I think in ITH, that said to wait 10 seconds before taking action when the turn card is black, but do it immediately when it's red, just to not show a pattern one way or another (as far as quality of hand). Too much work for me! IMO, the bigger, better tells come from PT. Hilger even pointed out in his book a case where a rock had only check/raised like 5 times in 35,000 hands (or something ridiculous like that). With that kind of data, I'd feel fairly confident in mucking to a check/raise by that guy if I don't have the nuts.

With regards to the chat, this all depends. I typically don't chat (probably 90% of the time). If I do chat, it might be "nh" to a guy who hit a royal or K high str8 flush or something else like that (you don't see every day). The other times are when a table coach is derating the fish! That pisses me off! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] I've read a number of the threads on this topic and tend to go to the defense of the fish. The only other time I tend to "chat" is when I'm asked a direct question or someone gives me the "nh". If it's the "nh", I just reply "ty". If it's a question, then the reply all depends on the question and how many beers have been consumed! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] In all, I rarely chat and rarely try to make enemies at the tables.

With regards to showing cards, all of my accounts are set for auto-muck. If you want to see my cards, you have to pay! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I think I pissed someone off a few days ago with this. I took down the pot with a solid bet and he mucked. He then asked me what I had... told him that it would only have cost him $10 (NL) to find out. His reply was censored!

The "playing too much" is standard br management. The fewer fish that understand this, the better! I have no problem with a fish depositing $100 every Friday night after getting his/her paycheck and then sitting at a 2/4 or 3/6 table with it. Just want them to do it at my table!