Fun hand

[Swills]

Live game 10/20

I've been trying to give off misinformation about my hands. Its a little project I've been working on recently.

All players are very loose and play about 80% of hands dealt to them. UTG is very aggressive pre/post flop. MP is somewhat aggressive. Button is a calling station. He'll call all the way to the river no matter what. When he has the best hand he never raises, just calls. Makes him tricky sometimes.

Hero is the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG1 raises, 2 folds, MP calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds

Flop (4 PLayers)
5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP raises, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls

I'm sure a value bet may be in order here but I am dealing with one maniac and I wanna see the turn as cheap as I can get it. Now I'm thinking UTG either has nothing or at best a 10 with no kicker. MP I put on a 2 pair or at best trips. Button, well, who knows since he is so loose and passive it could be anything. Maybe a straight draw.

Turn
4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero check, UTG check, MP check, Button check

Theres my money card but I give out a sigh of disspointment cause the entire table is looking at me wondering if I am gonna bet or check. They all seem nervous to see that flush card. So far so good. I knew if I bet they will fold, so I checked. Some of you may disagree but I thought it was the best plan of action.

River
6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero (with a most concern look) bets, UTG folds, MP Raises, Button folds, Hero re-raises, MP calls

Before I reraised him, I took one more good look at the board. Maybe I missed something. Nope, I got the best hand unless he has an A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] with another [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Thats a chance I was gonna have to take.

Results in white:
<font color="white">Hero: Kc Qc</font>
<font color="white">MP Js 6s </font>

[DemonDeac]

id consider 3-bet preflop based on ur reads on the players, cant respect the raise at all. i would also bet the turn, build a pot with 5 players in it or whatever it is. since they're calling stations, why not? THEY'RE GONNA CALL, RIGHT?

[Entity]

I'd like to see a check-3bet on the flop. Button isn't going anywhere and you've got 15 outs twice against two maniacs. I think not check-3betting is missing you bets.

You gave out a sigh of disappointment on the turn? Bleh -- first thing I ever read about tells is never trust someone who audibly sighs at a table.

Bet the turn for value. 3 opponents and you've got the best hand the vast majority of the time; it'll be hard to make up for this on the river if it gets checked through. If you're absolutely sure noone has the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and they will all fold if you bet, then will they all call on the river? You say that Button is a calling station and the others are maniacs -- how the hell can that read be congruous with people folding to one bet on this turn card? Calling stations don't fold here.

This hand seems pretty badly played to me postflop.

Rob

[MoreWineII]

I'd check-raise (3-bet as it turns out) the flop. You've got excellent position to the preflop raiser in this case, why not use it?

You've got overcards and the second-nut flush draw, I think you should be thinking about trapping players in the pot with your strong hand rather than worrying about seeing a cheap turn card.

Also, this might be unlikely, but if you can fold a better king (UTG?), that wouldn't be terrible either.

[Swills]

[ QUOTE ]
id consider 3-bet preflop based on ur reads on the players, cant respect the raise at all. i would also bet the turn, build a pot with 5 players in it or whatever it is. since they're calling stations, why not? THEY'RE GONNA CALL, RIGHT?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking about 3-betting the flop but I honestly thought UTG was gonna do it since he is so aggressive. Then I could sneak in with my hand. I was surprised he didn't.

Like I said, there was no way I was gonna bet the turn. Now, all of them are calling stations pre flop but when they see a hand that obviously beats them they'll fold. Except maybe the button. I wanted them to think I didnt have the flush and it worked on the river. Sure 2 folded as expected but MP thought I either had nothing or at best a 6. So his thinking is, if I do have a 6 hes got me beat with a J kicker.

[Swills]

[ QUOTE ]

You gave out a sigh of disappointment on the turn? Bleh -- first thing I ever read about tells is never trust someone who audibly sighs at a table.



Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to know. Like I said, I'm just experimenting. Good think they're not as observant as you.

[Entity]

Swills,

First of all, you should be check-3betting this flop. Don't hope for others to bet your hand for value; do it yourself. That's -3SB there.

Your turn and river play do not go along with the reads you gave. You say these guys are not calling stations, and yet, MP raised the flop with J6o. So he'll raise the flop with an overcard and a backdoor one-card straight draw but then fold the turn? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no here. There's a good possibility a player like this will bluff-raise a scarecard on the turn, and you need to give him that opportunity. Button will call, especially when he has a club, as you have labelled him the postflop calling station. -2BB, possibly more: 1 call from Button or the possibility of a bluff-raise from maniac.

River play: standard, since you screwed up the turn.

Here's the deal. Maniac isn't thinking about your hand here, and that's clear; consequently, I don't see him folding to a turn bet very often if he doesn't fold to a river raise. If you see that he'll call when you raise the river, it's hard to imagine him folding the turn for one bet; I hope you see why.

Bet this turn. You posted this hand for a reason, I hope, and you'll get a lot of advice here that will say not betting this turn is a mistake.

Rob

[ecooke]

Go ahead and pop in #3 on the Flop - strong draw, pot equity, and the like. Lead the Turn.
I feel sad after watching so many bets slip away in what looks like a great 10/20 game.

[jclin]

Sigh = very good or very bad. If you make any kind of move, whether it be bet or raise, I know I'm f***ed. I play lots more live than online b/c those tells are so much more noticable.

Note: when someone sighs and hits the table, it's either a made hand that looks like he got rivered, or it is a total miss (e.g. AKs w/2-flush). I don't think I've ever seen anyone hit the table and raise. If that ever happened, I'd run away from the hand. Fast. Like a little girl.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
but I am dealing with one maniac and I wanna see the turn as cheap as I can get it

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't understand why this statement is absolutely terrible, you may want to investigate this book.

Wanting to get to the turn cheaply here is a mistake, because at this point, your hand is almost definitely a favorite over the other hands in this hand: you want as much money as possible going into the pot.

Rob