Scaring away customers with a flush draw raise?

[belloc]

I keep reading and rereading the section in SSH on Protecting Your Hand, and every time I think I've got it, I get into a game situation where my brain falls out and I forget everything I've learned.

UTG is LAG, UTG+1 is LAP, MP2 is LAG. I flop the nut flush draw, and player to my right bets. I have big overcards but no pair, so am I trying to force players out here or keep 'customers' for my draw?

Another way to put it: despite the obviously happy outcome here, do I want (before I know the turn card) MP2 to cold call the raise here, or do I want him to go away?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (9.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

[tripdad]

i think you played this just fine. you should be neither overjoyed, nor disappointed by MP2's cold call. it was likely a big mistake by him to do that, but likely benefitted UTG+1 more so than you.

cheers!

[Rah]

Raise it. If people call you it's good, but if they fold it's not terrible since it would give you position and potentially a free card.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
I have big overcards but no pair, so am I trying to force players out here or keep 'customers' for my draw?

Another way to put it: despite the obviously happy outcome here, do I want (before I know the turn card) MP2 to cold call the raise here, or do I want him to go away?

[/ QUOTE ]

You played it right, and as the pot is already big we are cheering for MP2 to fold, but we aren't terribly bothered by the call.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
I flop the nut flush draw, and player to my right bets. I have big overcards but no pair, so am I trying to force players out here or keep 'customers' for my draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

This one is real simple. You are trying to get in as many flop bets as possible here. You don't care if your opponents call, raise or fold. Just keep betting and raising at every opportunity. Your pot equity on the flop is GINORMOUS.

Well played!

[belloc]

Turns out that UTG+1 has 77, so that my money card on the turn (7c) was a big help to him as well. So, one reason I posted this is that in this particular case I might have made as much as three big bets from him on fourth street if I hadn't shown strength on the flop. Obviously that's a rare case, but my flop raise (and the flushy turn card) put him on high alert, causing him to just call down his spiked set.

[BottlesOf]

Hahaha, well way to go UTG+1, you played that one well!

You, otoh, played your hand well for real.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I have big overcards but no pair, so am I trying to force players out here or keep 'customers' for my draw?


[/ QUOTE ]

you don't really give a rat's ass what other players do in this hand. they call great, they fold, thats' good too. barring a flopped set, your equity is gigantic here.

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
you don't really give a rat's ass what other players do in this hand. they call great, they fold, thats' good too. barring a flopped set, your equity is gigantic here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, this confuses me just a bit. I've always thought of flop raises as having (very generally) two functions: you raise to build the pot when you have the best of it, or you raise to knock out opponents who might draw out on you or have redraws that will make it correct for them to draw again on fourth street.

I understand that I have a pot equity edge here, and that all callers are ultimately paying me off, but shouldn't I be intending one or the other of the above when I raise? In this case, the first bet comes immediately from my right, so my raise forces the maximum of callers to call two cold.

In other words, is my raise here for value or is it to protect my hand? Or is there some third thing? Or am I just being dim and it doesn't really matter?

[7ontheline]

Probably both. You're trying to get K2 to fold so if the turn is a K you have protected your hand. Your raise is for value because, as many posters have mentioned, your pot equity is huge with the nut flush draw and two overcards.