prob my biggest leak- folding winners

MissOt · #1 01-07-2005, 03:54 AM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: (6.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 6c 6d (two pair, queens and sixes).
UTG has Ah 2c (two pair, aces and queens).
UTG+1 has Ac 7c (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 12.50 BB. 

i know it ruins the fun but i had to show the results. i do this all the time... looked like an obvious fold, but looking back they all played it pretty strange who knows

did i misplay flop? and fold pf?

Gravy (Gravy Smoothie) · #2 01-07-2005, 04:04 AM

Preflop good. I'd probably just fold the flop, you're drawing dead to any Q, behind any pocket pairs 66+ and barely have an equity edge over a flush draw if it's out there.

Aaron W. · #3 01-07-2005, 04:07 AM

Completing this in the small blind is fine, especially since it's going to be 5-handed.

Your line confuses me. I'm not quite sure what you had in mind.

1) Why check-raise UTG+1? The pot seems a little too small, as does your pair, to be making this play. I guess maybe you thought your hand was best (you would never pull this stunt if you thought you were behind a Q).

2) But since you did check-raise, why did you check the turn? Don't expect to pull off a double check-raise unless you're sure that UTG+1 is a LAG. If you checked because you were afraid of the other full house, then see #1.

3) But if you missed the turn check-raise, you should have bet the river. Unless you thought that your hand was no good, but then see #1.

4) The river fold isn't quite as bad as you think. The pot is only 10 BB and it's going to cost you at least 2 BB to see it. Your hand might be good, but it's going to have to be good 20% of the time against a bet and raise (the raise gives the impression of a fancy queen). Folding to a 20-something BB pot -- that's a disaster.

The way out of this would simply be to bet the turn with the full house. If UTG+1 decided that he would make a play for this pot, it would have driven everyone else out and you can call a single bet heads up on the river.

SoCalPat · #4 01-07-2005, 04:09 AM

Why on earth did you check the turn? Or the river? Especially since your C/R on the flop obviously led you to believe you were ahead at that point -- unless you believe that going for a C/R when drawing dead to perfect-perfect is proper play.

Or were you trying to see if there was a Q out there? Hey, I'd be concerned too that so many players called two cold on the flop to my C/R, but until someone says otherwise, I'm treating my low boat on the turn as the best hand. You never even gave yourself a chance to treat it as such.

After your flop C/R, no one without a Q or 5 could make a call on the turn without being labeled clinically insane. Your turn and river check screamed you had neither. And if you're raised, your decision becomes much easier.

Take into account the position of your opponents. Would the BB check the turn up front if he had a Q? No, he's going to bet out on expensive street, especially when you, the flop raiser, has checked. Would the flop bettor (UTG+1) who is last act let his queens full be checked around on the turn? Hell no.

Your biggest problem isn't folding winners -- it's failing to bet them.

MissOt · #5 01-07-2005, 04:22 AM

i was going to fold flop but then they all checked and the guy last to act bet. thought i had him beat and could shut out the rest

lol you guys are asking me all these questions when im the one asking you the questions. im horrible at limit obviously, but i dno.

mackthefork · #6 01-07-2005, 04:50 AM

Results are not helpful, but my view was that you were behind on the flop and ahead on the turn, I do everything the same as you up until this point

[ QUOTE ]
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Here you 3 bet and hope it is capped you are ahead here almost 100% of the time, you really need to stop making these big laydowns man, they do you more harm than good.

Regards Mack

bottomset · #7 01-07-2005, 05:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here you 3 bet and hope it is capped you are ahead here almost 100% of the time, you really need to stop making these big laydowns man, they do you more harm than good.

Regards Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

check again the board is double-paired QQ55 no way near 100% ahead

uh if she's behind on the flop, she has a good shot of being dead on the turn, if someone has a Q she's dead, if its a pocket 6-JJ, KK, AA he's back ahead on the turn, and has anything unpaired dead going into the river, as well as 22-44

pindawg · #8 01-07-2005, 05:41 AM

If someone had a queen they would have bet the turn ... 99% of the time. One of them would have put him back in his place after the c/r on the flop, but no .. absolutely no aciton whatsoever. River comes and they gotta think their 2 pair A kicker is good. He's not 100% everytime but in this hand he shouldn't have been afraid to showdown.

MissOt · #9 01-07-2005, 07:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Results are not helpful, but my view was that you were behind on the flop and ahead on the turn, I do everything the same as you up until this point

[ QUOTE ]
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Here you 3 bet and hope it is capped you are ahead here almost 100% of the time, you really need to stop making these big laydowns man, they do you more harm than good.

Regards Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry to let you down mack! didnt think it was a ''big'' laydown. thought it was standard and i was beat by at least 1 of em lol.

i guess i shoulda called thx for the help though they do bet the turn with a Q and im a [censored] idiot and still cant figure out this [censored] 5/1 bs

Shillx · #10 01-07-2005, 07:11 AM

Fold the flop.

Since you didn't, the turn check is fine. Bet the river tho after everyone checks the turn.

Brad