2 Turn Check Behind Hands

Festus22 · #1 01-05-2005, 09:13 PM

Good or whiffed value bets?

Hand 1
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 4 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (5.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Hand 2
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (6 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Entity · #2 01-05-2005, 09:19 PM

I'm not sure about #1. I think it's fine if BB is passive, but if he's loose-passive-stupid, then I'd bet the turn and the river for value.

#2 I don't like. Too many cards can come that make you hate your 3's, so I'd bet the turn and check the river.

Rob

captZEEbo1 · #3 01-05-2005, 09:20 PM

you should be betting BOTH of these turns, and probably folding to turn c/r's. Then you can check the river behind (except in hand one where the third ace drops, it's an easy bet). If they ARE drawing, you don't want to give them a free card, where they'll just fold to a river bet.

tipperdog · #4 01-05-2005, 09:43 PM

Two whiffs, I think. In each case, your hand is vulnerable and your opponent has only been responding to your play. You must summon the courage to bet in these circumstances. (Full disclosure: I often chicken out in situations like this also, but the weakness isn't good. This is a clear bet.)

housenuts · #5 01-05-2005, 10:26 PM

i think you played it right in hand #1. because if you have to fold to a c/r then don't bet.

as for hand 2 i think you should bet the turn. and if he c/r'ed i would probably raise it again.

then with that river card I bet again.

Festus22 · #6 01-06-2005, 09:21 AM

Hand 1 - BB had Q-4o (yes, he called 2 more cold out the BB) and MHIG. I'm still torn with this one. Drawless board and everybody's favorite card to play shows up paired on the flop. The only free cards I'm risking are the K and Q. So it's 6 outs max (way less in reality I'm sure). Is the chance to get blown off my hand to a turn checkraise bluff greater than the risk of losing to a river suck out? Will he call me down with a worse hand? In this case, he obviously would have so I lost a BB. Dunno long term though.

Hand 2 - Even better. SB had 6-2o and called 1.5 SB's more with it. MHIG again. Just so tough to put these guys on a hand [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] <end joke>. I really thought he either had a pocket pair, a 5 or a deuce so my thinking I was probably behind. But the pot was big and it was necessary to try to get it headsup. If I was 3-bet by anyone, I call and check/fold the turn unimproved. So if I think I'm behind, I actually do get it headsup, what am I risking by checking the turn? I want to see a cheap showdown and that bet, fold to a checkraise line on the turn costs me the same BB than checking behind on the turn and calling a river bet. Plus if I am really behind, I get one more (slim) chance to improve. So in a raised pot, a flop of 5-5-2, the SB bets out and I have 3's, why would I want to be firing on the turn when I usually don't have the best hand? Of course, once again I did have the best hand and lost a BB since I would have been called down apparently.

<Sigh>

tipperdog · #7 01-06-2005, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think you played it right in hand #1. because if you have to fold to a c/r then don't bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with your logic here. If you are check-raised, it almost certainly means that your opponent has an ace, in which case you have so few outs that it really doesn't matter. You can fold with a clear conscience. However, your bet might fold off many hands that have more outs against you, or at least, you can force your opponent to make a bad call.

Just because you'll fold to a check-raise doesn't mean your bet is bad. Of course, this assumes that you can safely fold to a check-raise. If your opponent is the type capable of a check-raise bluff on a nasty board like that (these opponents are VERY rare), then I agree that check behind is the more prudent play.

btspider · #8 01-06-2005, 01:24 PM

am i the only one who doesn't like the flop raise in hand 2 with the PFR still to act (granted, a kinda-sortof blind steal raise).

Festus22 · #9 01-06-2005, 01:37 PM

Based on card distribution, he's MUCH more likely to have overcards than an overpair. I want his ass outta there. As I said in my Results post, if I'm 3-bet on the flop, I'm done on the turn unimproved.

Are you suggesting either just calling or folding the flop?

btspider · #10 01-06-2005, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Based on card distribution, he's MUCH more likely to have overcards than an overpair. I want his ass outta there. As I said in my Results post, if I'm 3-bet on the flop, I'm done on the turn unimproved.

Are you suggesting either just calling or folding the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

its definitely raise or fold. calling is terrible. the current pot is "only" 8 SB's and you have a made hand which will not likely improve, so its a reverse implied odds scenario.

you have to dodge a current better hand from the SB, 2 overcards from the SB who will likely see the turn at least, an overpair from the button, and an unlikely MP x-factor hand. so i'm not sure if this situation is worth the flop 2 SB commitment (and 2 more on the turn when not 3-bet). of course, if any flop is worth it.. this is the one.