A jouney in to a dark and scary place (My brain)

pho75 · #1 01-05-2005, 02:57 PM

I have been playing NL hold'em for about 3 months at its lowest levels. I'm trying very hard to improve and sometimes I think I am. Then a hand like this comes up and I go back to convincing myself that I actually don't really know what's going on at all. I just played this hand a few minutes ago. What follows is my thought process as I played the hand. Jouney with me in to the terrifying and confused mind of an online poker newbie.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.02 BB (10 handed) converter

UTG+1 ($1.90)
UTG+2 ($1.55)
MP1 ($.40)
MP2 ($1.40)
MP3 ($2.08)
CO ($3.03)
Button ($1.77)
SB ($1.07)
HERO ($2.72)
UTG ($4.54)

Preflop: HERO is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, MP3 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Button calls $0.02, SB completes, HERO checks.

"That's Typical"

Flop: ($0.16) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 players)

"Nice, a flush draw. Ooo, and a straight draw. There are also 2 card in that deck that will give me a straight flush. That would be sweet."

SB bets $0.02

"It's my turn. Hey! I have a pair too. This is very good. What do I do, raise or call? If I raise, some of them will fold. Do I want that? Which one will get me more money if I end up improving and winning? I don't know! Well, I haven't put any money in so far so why start now. I'll just call."

HERO calls $0.02, UTG calls $0.02, UTG+2 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02

"What if they all just call? That would be great. Hee-Hee."

MP2 calls $0.02

"Hey, I should be counting my outs and figuring my odds to improve right? Let's see 9 for the flush, 8 for the straight minus 2. That's 15 right? Hey, I remember figuring that out before. I should know this by now."

MP3 raises to $0.5

"CRAP! Man that sucks. He's ruining it for every one. Or is he? Let's see, it looks like he's just protecting some kind of hand. Probably, a pair of tens with a decent kicker. That's what I would do. "

Button folds, SB folds

"Hey! you're scaring away my customers dude!"
"Ahh! It's my turn. What do I do?"
"Hmm, he bet $0.50. What are the pot odd now? Well, on my screen it says the pot started at $0.16 and then a bunch of people called, but that doesn't add up to $0.50 more. So the pot odds are between 1-1 and 2-1. That's close, I think I should find out for sure."
"Let's see where was I? Oh yea, 15 outs for the straight and flush draws. But I have a pair also, so thats 5 more outs right? They don't intersect with my flush or my straight. I remember that one."
"But wait. That 5 extra-outs-with-lower-pair thing only works when he actually has top pair. I remember getting burnt like that before. Could he have made that bet with someting other than top pair? Could he have 2 pair? Let's see."
"Wow, he could definitely have 2 pair ,two different ways. Maybe even three! Could he have trips? Not tens, he would have raised before the flop. But pocket 8's or 9's, now that's possible. Possible but not probable."
"So do I count my 5 extra outs for my pair of 8's? Geez, I have no idea."
"I know, I'll look up the odds for both and see if it matters that much."
"What about my straight flush possibilities how does that factor in? Man, that would be sweet!"
"Where's my cheat sheet. Dammit, where is it? It was just right here. Ah, it's buried under this stack of books and paper."
"AAHHHH! that 15 second timer thinhg just beeped at me. I have to do SOMETING."
"No time to look up the odds."
"A call seems close, especially if those 5 other outs are no good. I could go all-in and if everyone folds that would be good. If only HE calls that would be good too. I'm either a big favorite or a small one against anything he could reasonably be holding. Right?"
"No, that seems wrong for some reason. To risky."
"But wait, there are a bunch of players behind me. They all checked the flop so some of them might be on a draw too. If I just call for $0.50 that would give the next one in line better odds to make their call. That would give me at LEAST 2-1 on my money. That seems about right. I'm calling. Oh, but what if someone raises? Ahh, screw it."

HERO calls $0.48, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $0.36 (All-In), MP2 folds.

"That's not what I wanted. Hey, at least no one raised!"

Turn: ($1.62) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

"CRAP! Now I know my 5 extra outs are no good. I rememer one time I put out a 1/3 pot sized bet to see if that might stop a big bet and I got raised. I'm not trying that again."

HERO checks, MP3 bets $1.56 (All-In)

"I knew it. I would do the same thing."
"Well, only 15 outs for sure now. If he had a full house he would have bet less or not at all"
"At least things are much clearer now and I have time to look up my odds. Hmm, 2-1. That almost exactly what I'm getting from the pot. Even money. Should I take it? Isn't that just gambling?"
"And what about that other guy's all-in side pot? How does that affect the pot odds? Is it good or bad? I have no idea."
"If I fold now I'll feel like a weak loser. I'm confused."
"It sucks to fold. I'm calling!

HERO calls $1.56.

River: ($4.74) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $4.74
Main Pot: $1.38, between MP1, MP3 and HERO. > Pot won by MP3 ($1.38).
Pot 2: $3.36, between MP3 and HERO. > Pot won by MP3 ($3.36).

HERO has 7s 8s (two pair, tens and eights).
MP1 has Js 2s (one pair, tens).
MP3 has Tc Kh (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: MP3 wins $4.74.

Any and all comments and criticisms are welcome. I would really like to know what a good player would be thinking throughout that hand and the decisions and choices that he would make. It seems like it should be a fairly straightforward hand for a decent player to figure out. I do have 3 specific questions though.

1. As you can see I got very confused after the flop trying to calculate my outs and odds. Could someone set me straight.

2. How DOES that other guy's all-in side pot (or is it the main pot?) Affect how I come to decision after the turn?

3. Should I have made that last call assuming it was for even money?

Kaz The Original · #2 01-05-2005, 03:39 PM

I really liked your post, it was great : )

I would push when bets 50 cents at me on the flop. You are even money versus anything but a set and a HUGE favourite over practically every other hand (aside from QJ of spades of course ; p)

ihardlyknowher · #3 01-05-2005, 03:40 PM

HERE'S WHAT I WOULD BE THINKNING:

UTG+1 ($1.90)
UTG+2 ($1.55)
MP1 ($.40)
MP2 ($1.40)
MP3 ($2.08)
CO ($3.03)
Button ($1.77)
SB ($1.07)
HERO ($2.72)
UTG ($4.54)

Preflop: HERO is BB with 7s, 8s.
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, MP3 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Button calls $0.02, SB completes, HERO checks.

"I would probably check, but might raise occassionally to add some deception."

Flop: ($0.16) 8d, 9s, Ts (8 players)

"Good flop. I have third pair and a sh*tload of outs. If someone has JQ I am f*cked."

SB bets $0.02

"What a whimpy bet, he obviously does not have much. I am going to see if I can take this down right now. Even if I don't I likely have 14 good outs - 9 Spades, 2 Eights, and 3 non-spade Sixes (I wouldn't count the non-spade Sevens because they likely make someone a straight, same with the non-spade Jacks because they likely make someone a better straight than mine). Time to semi-bluff and make a REAL bet of $0.20."

HERO calls $0.02, UTG calls $0.02, UTG+2 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02

"Now, I am hopefully watching everyone fold to my bet. They could be thinking that I have flopped a straight, two pair, or a set and they are drawing thin or dead."

MP2 calls $0.02

MP3 raises to $0.5

"He has a strong hand and could have flopped a straight, two pair, or a set (I don't think anyone with TPTK is coming over the top of me with that flop). If I hit my flush, I beat all of those. So now I think I have 9 outs and evaluate the pot odds (and implied odds) from there. How many people call my first bet and their stack sizes play a big roll in this decision. If everyone else had folded, I would probably fold here."

Button folds, SB folds

HERO calls $0.48, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $0.36 (All-In), MP2 folds.

Turn: ($1.62) Td (3 players, 1 all-in)

"I am most likely behind to trips. Also, I may be drawing dead if my opponent had pocket 8s,9s,or Ts; T8; or T9. Where is my opponent sitting and did he raise or cold call a raise pre-flop?"

HERO checks, MP3 bets $1.56 (All-In)

"I am not getting sufficient odds to draw to my flush, which may or may not give me the best hand. I Fold. There is always next hand and I will soon have the Button (woo-hoo!)."

HERO calls $1.56.

River: ($4.74) Ah (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $4.74
Main Pot: $1.38, between MP1, MP3 and HERO. > Pot won by MP3 ($1.38).
Pot 2: $3.36, between MP3 and HERO. > Pot won by MP3 ($3.36).

HERO has 7s 8s (two pair, tens and eights).
MP1 has Js 2s (one pair, tens).
MP3 has Tc Kh (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: MP3 wins $4.74.

Spladle Master · #4 01-05-2005, 04:53 PM

I would come over the top of the 50c raise. Getting all-in on this flop with your hand can't be bad.