small stakes question

[johnsmith]

hi, i have been playing real money poker for about 4 months. I feel I have done alright. I have studied numerous books including SSHE, and other 2+2 books. I have won two tournaments on UB with alot of people in them and been to the final table at least 5 times on UB not to mention doing good in local casino tournaments.

My question though isn't really about no limit. I enjoy limit and am trying to excel at that before I put alot of money into NL because although I do great at tournaments I don't seem to do as well in NL $$ games.

Anyway, I play $.50-$1 and $1-$2 limit holdem and although I do o.k. it seems like I am getting sucked out on alot more than even is stated that will happen in SSHE by people playing the absolute stupidest crap. I make good $$$$ when this doesn't happen and understand I should be making money by these people playing crap but when 4 or 5 people all take a turn or two doing this to you once or twice each throughout a session it turns your other profitable sessions into minimal gains overall.


Should I be saving a bankroll for playing $2-$4 at least, and applying skills or is this not the problem. I noticed that this Small Stakes Forum Rules posted by Mat Sklansky says that it applies to $2-$4 to $15-$30.

Advice is much appreciated.
thank you

[Luv2DriveTT]

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My question though isn't really about no limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why bring up the topic when this is a limit forum?


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Should I be saving a bankroll for playing $2-$4 at least, and applying skills or is this not the problem.

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This is most likely not the problem. The problem is most likely your play. If you can't beat the .50/1 limits, then you won't survive 2/4.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[johnsmith]

if you would read what you copied and pasted it says my question is NOT about no limit.

and I do make money just wondering if i would be making more by moving up to these stakes which i can't as easily afford.

[bdk3clash]

Jon:

Welcome to the forum. I'll try to address some of your questions.

First off, people might (rightly) jump on you a bit for saying this:

"it seems like I am getting sucked out on alot more than even is stated that will happen in SSHE by people playing the absolute stupidest crap. I make good $$$$ when this doesn't happen and understand I should be making money by these people playing crap but when 4 or 5 people all take a turn or two doing this to you once or twice each throughout a session it turns your other profitable sessions into minimal gains overall."

A lot of beginning (and long-time!) players feel this way, but they're wrong. More opponents making mistakes means a game is more profitable for you. It's true that the more players you have against you in a particular hand, the less likely you are to win that particular hand. But the great thing is that unlike some of your opponents, you'll be playing poker to win money, not to win pots. This is a somewhat subtle but incredibly important distinction to make.

So you might be thinking that you'd be better off against opponents in higher stakes games; opponents who "respect raises" or "play right" or whatever, but you really won't be. First off, the aggression level in these higher games will be much, much higher than you're used to, and although these opponents still play too many hands and make mistakes, generally as the limits go up, the opposition gets tougher. There are, of course, exceptions, but it's an illusion for you to think that you'd be a "better" $2/4 than $0.50/$1 player or whatever.

So, what level should you play at when you're just starting out at learning limit hold'em? Whatever you're comfortable with. Keep in mind that it's a pretty swingy game, and the old 300 BB bankroll was designed for winning players, which you can really be sure you are yet.

I would suggest keeping the stakes small (the Party $0.50/1 game is great) and getting a bunch of hands under your belt before moving up. The best way to get a bankroll for higher games is to earn it, because you'll be learning along the way.

Also, I think you'd be well served to check out a beginner's limit hold'em book. "Winning Low Limit Hold'em" by Lee Jones and "Internet Texas Hold'em" by Matthew Hilger.

Also, don't let TT scare you. He's actually a pretty nice guy.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
and I do make money just wondering if i would be making more by moving up to these stakes which i can't as easily afford.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take a stab at this one, as I can relate to you probably better than most of the posters here (who are great, BTW, don't get me wrong). I've been playing about as long as you have, and worked my way up through the microlimits to 2/4, where I currently play...probably too quickly. The key to moving up to a new limit is, don't do it if you're not sure you're ready. It's really that simple--if you still have doubts, you're not ready.

Regarding your point about being sucked out on repeatedly...this happens all the time in limit HE, particularly on the lower limits where you're up against some pretty bad players. What's more, though, you want it to happen.

If a player is calling to the river with weak draws against your big hands, that's very good for you. Not most of the time, but always...because on those rare occassions when he does suck out on you & catch the runner runner miracle, that only reinforces his playing style. He'll keep doing it over & over, and the vast majority of the time, your hand will hold up and he'll be paying you off when he shouldn't. This is the very basis of the theorem of poker from Theory of Poker; if the fish doesn't ever win with his crazy plays, then he either goes broke or learns how to play properly...either way, that's less money for you to win.

Some things I would recommend:

1) Purchase Poker Tracker if you haven't already. This tool is invaluable in its ability to help you analyze your own game, and to help you identify the opponents you want to play against vs. those you should be avoiding. Even playing .50/1 limit, it will pay for itself & then some.
2) Learn to recognize when you've been outdrawn by a fish, and when it's okay to fold an otherwise good hand. Most fish are very straightforward in their play...with a modest holding like top pair/no kicker, bottom pair, or a draw, they will call. When they make 2 pair or better, they will bet and/or raise. When a normally passive fish raises you, your TPTK probably isn't good anymore.
3) Post your hand histories on the microlimits forum, and listen to the feedback you get. The posters here will greatly increase your learning curve.
4) Define what your current goal in poker is, and stick to it. More importantly, realize that your current goal and your ultimate goal are not the same thing...your ultimate goal may be to go pro and make a living playing poker, but no matter how well you are doing at 1/2, you are not ready to do that, and will not be for quite some time yet. Your current goal could be something like shoring up the holes in your game to increase your earnings at the current level, in preparation for moving up to 2/4 & higher. Or it could be something as simple as pocketing an extra $50/week (easily achievable at that limit).

Finally, do not, ever, play at a limit that you can't afford to lose at. That's the perfect way to start that downward spiral into compulsive gambling, which will ruin your life & the lives of everyone around you. Take a lesson from what Greg Raymer did when he was starting out...budget yourself a stake that you can afford to lose, and play with that. If you lose it all, walk away; at least until you have more money lying around that you don't need. You should never be playing with the rent money.

Welcome to the forums, and good luck! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[johnsmith]

ok i guess i've maybe not explained enough. I frequently cash out so I know how much I win total to have a bankroll saved. I am a starving college student so when I win a couple days it usually is used for bills and etc. I have frequently gone on consecutive days of $50 withdrawals from party on $50-$1 and $1-$2. So I have won and played many hands even though this is my first post.


I understand the theory basis of pot equity vs. weak hands but it seems like these suckouts because of the ABSOLUTE overplaying of everything would be less at a higher level will still getting your share of crappy players, just not every single person at the whole table taking stabs on your premium hands when 1 of the 9 suckout on you once each during the night. If each one of those people get lucky on you once when you are betting premium hands you stand to lose quite a few bets.

[Harv72b]

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I understand the theory basis of pot equity vs. weak hands but it seems like these suckouts because of the ABSOLUTE overplaying of everything would be less at a higher level will still getting your share of crappy players, just not every single person at the whole table taking stabs on your premium hands when 1 of the 9 suckout on you once each during the night. If each one of those people get lucky on you once when you are betting premium hands you stand to lose quite a few bets.

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Another point...at a higher limit against better players, you will probably win more often with your premium hands (I don't want to say for sure because I've never played above 2/4). However, you will be winning smaller pots each time, in terms of BBs, because you won't have all these crazy fish cold-calling your preflop 3bet with 25s & 78o, and you likewise won't see someone call you to the river with nothing but a runner-runner straight draw. That's the trade-off...your big hands aren't holding up as often on 1/2 or .50/1 as you think they should, but when they do hold up you're winning bigger pots than you should be.

[bdk3clash]

OK, you tell me: Would you rather win a 15 BB pot once every 5 times, or a 2 BB pot every time?

You also seem really fixated on short-term stuff (cashing out $50 after a day of winning, etc.), which is not a good way to look at playing limit hold'em. It's all about the long-term, which is much, much longer than I suspect you think.

[MoreWineII]

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OK, you tell me: Would you rather win a 15 BB pot once every 5 times, or a 2 BB pot every time?

You also seem really fixated on short-term stuff (cashing out $50 after a day of winning, etc.), which is not a good way to look at playing limit hold'em. It's all about the long-term, which is much, much longer than I suspect you think.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not going to see accurate and dependable results until you've played tens of thousands of hands.

[johnsmith]

i'm sorry if i sound fixated on the short term as i only have played 4 months. I don't have accounting records of my winnings, have Poker Tracker but computer crashed and had to reformat so don't have stats. I was telling you guys this because from your previous replies it seemed as you thought i was losing at limit holdem. This is not the case at lost not so far.

I have made money I was just wondering peoples ideas about a suitable limit to have the best study of small stakes holdem from a SSHE point of view. I was wondering if I would be better off moving up out of what seems to be an absolute cess pool of crappy players all taking shots with crap.

By the way I have read Matthew Hilger's book and found it to teach a weak tight style pretty much all defense. No? I haven't read the other one mentioned but have hepfap, theory of poker, sshe, and other 2+2 books.

And I said cashing out $50 or more on consecutive day runs. I rarely redeposit money into my account.