Gutshot to the nut straight, scary board

[Hallett]

live 6/12 game. Two good (tight aggressive) players, and a bunch of passive calling stations. I have been here for a half an our, and am down $225. Getting fabulous cards that just don't work (AA vs 77, flop is seven, I don't improve, etc.) so I may be tilting a bit.

I get K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG. 1 weak caller, good player calls, three more weak calls, button (weak) raises, SB folds, BB (good player calls), everyone calls. 8 people see the flop for 16.5 small bets.

Flop is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, checked around to raiser who bets, everyone calls.
8 people see the turn for 24.5 small bets (12.25 BB)

Turn is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checked around to raiser who bets. Folded to hero who.......Folds

Thoughts?

Of course, the reason this is posted is the river was a Q. I won't mention the suit until tonight, but do I have 4 outs to the gutshot, or do I discount the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and fold the turn, as I did?

Thanks

[Kaz The Original]

How many disasters occur with the few simple words... I get K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG.

[Bob T.]

Preflop, I probably would have raised, but in a live game, limping is probably OK, because you would have had to play a difficult hand out of position against a big field in a raised pot. Oh wait, that happened anyway.

OK, on the flop, you have 3 clean outs, 1 tainted queen, and 6 tainted Kings and Jacks.

With a bazillion bets in the pot, the goal should be to give yourself the best chance to win, you could either bet out, and hope that the threat of a button raise, clears out everyone, or you could checkraise the probable button bet, and make everyone face two cold. Whenever you flop a gutshot, and two overcards, you at least need to consider playing the hand fast on the flop. After the flop, you probably should slow down unless you improve.

On the turn, you are getting fourteen or fifteen to one, so if just the three non heart queens are good, your decision to continue is correct if you can capture another bet or two on the river, and then any times the queen of hearts is good, is just a bonus.

Basically, the pot is just too big for you to be folding here, for one bet.

[Bob T.]

How many disasters occur with the few simple words... I get K J UTG.

Well, I am slightly behind with KJs UTG, but if I combind KQs, KJs, and KTs UTG in full games, I am ahead with a small sample. I think if you play well postflop, you can play these hands in any position.

[Hallett]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop, I probably would have raised, but in a live game, limping is probably OK, because you would have had to play a difficult hand out of position against a big field in a raised pot. Oh wait, that happened anyway.

OK, on the flop, you have 3 clean outs, 1 tainted queen, and 6 tainted Kings and Jacks.

With a bazillion bets in the pot, the goal should be to give yourself the best chance to win, you could either bet out, and hope that the threat of a button raise, clears out everyone, or you could checkraise the probable button bet, and make everyone face two cold. Whenever you flop a gutshot, and two overcards, you at least need to consider playing the hand fast on the flop. After the flop, you probably should slow down unless you improve.

On the turn, you are getting fourteen or fifteen to one, so if just the three non heart queens are good, your decision to continue is correct if you can capture another bet or two on the river, and then any times the queen of hearts is good, is just a bonus.

Basically, the pot is just too big for you to be folding here, for one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the comments. The river was the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and I would have been good. I think I gave too much thought to the combined fact that with so many callers, there was likely a heart draw, and the board was paired. I like your line better. I did not give that much worry to the paired board though, as anyone with two pair (a 9 or T) could not hurt me on the river if a Q came. Q 3 is possible with this crew though. I think the bad run I was having made me play this too weakly.

[colgin]

Hallett,

Hi there. I would have probably raised preflop but limping isn't too bad.

On the flop, when the button obliges by auto-betting I think you should raise here. The pot is big and you would like to see hands like AJ fold. With your two overcards, gutshot and backdoor flush draw you can't fold. Given that, raising is better if it increae your chances of winning which I think it does here.

On the turn I am not folding. The board pairing low is not too scary here since you have no reason to believe that a set is out there. I would assume that hitting your Queen is good.

[ggbman]

Im sorry, but i HATE this turn fold. Your "tainted" outs have a legitimate shot at being good here, any Jack or King could possibly give you a winner, plus the gutshot. Easy call with those pot odds IMO

[Hallett]

[ QUOTE ]
Im sorry, but i HATE this turn fold. Your "tainted" outs have a legitimate shot at being good here, any Jack or King could possibly give you a winner, plus the gutshot. Easy call with those pot odds IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I took a long walk after this hand, I think I played it poorly. Seemed logical at the time, but I agree with everything everyone has said. I think I was shellshocked from some ealier hands and played this one like my dear departed granny would. Simply put, the pot is too big to fold for one bet. I am glad I was unhappy with the play and posted the hand, everyones advice is great.

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop, I probably would have raised, but in a live game, limping is probably OK, because you would have had to play a difficult hand out of position against a big field in a raised pot. Oh wait, that happened anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This contradicts SSH, why do you do this?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
This contradicts SSH, why do you do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at the footnote at the bottom of page 88 in SSH. There's no one correct way to play KJs in early position.