Negreanu's 4s7s hand

[jay2377]

First post here, so I hope this is in an appropriate forum. Anyways, in Negreanu's current CardPlayer column (about the 2004 Borgata Poker Open), he talks about an early position raise he made for 5000 (blinds 1000/2000, 300 ante, his stack 140,000) with the 47 of spades. He doesn't explain his reasoning for this, except for pointing out other well known players who would do the same. Other then the early position bluff (which I don't think he had in mind), I can't understand the reasoning behind this type of play. Any thoughts?

[binions]

Harrington talks about open raising with a suited connector 15% of the time in early position (although he limits it to 0-gappers down to 65).

The play is done for three main reasons:

1) To steal the blinds as a big stack bully (at a level like the one Negreanu was at)

2) Action value for the other early raises you make (when you play with the same people a lot, they might give your Aces action next time, remembering your 74 raise)

3) Deception value for the current hand (no one is going to put you on a monster when 77x, 44x, 74x, 568, 563, etc flop)

[ilya]

Among other things, I'd guess he was thinking

- the stacks are deep; good for implied odds.
- the hand is easy to get away from unless the flop hits you pretty hard - it's not like you're gonna have to decide whether your kicker is good.
- the straights that this hand can make are very deceptive; again, good for implied odds.
- it's easy to fold to a pre-flop re-raise.
- winning a big pot & becoming the new table chip leader would give him an extra advantage that would continue after this hand.

[meatwad]

Does anyone actually have alot of good results from this type of play online?

I find it just eats away my chips. Plus you inevitably become involved in certain hands that you just shouldn't be in, like missed straights/flushes.

I guess if I had alot of chips to speculate with.

[Lloyd]

I think Ilya summed it up quite well. Remember there are two differences between our online play and DN's typical games. First, big buy-in tournies have a lot more chips in relation to starting blinds. This gives room to play with. Second, we're not DN. He is good enough to get away from hands that he shouldn't be in and won't chase draws unless he's paying the right price.

[ilya]

Incidentally, don't you love how DN does his best to convince his readers that reading poker books is uncool and unnecessary?

[zaxx19]

I got to say poker books have their place...primarily to introduce people to the game and to basic concepts of tourney play. But lately the books Ive read have been pretty dissapointing on advice for NLH tourney play.( CLoutier's and Sklansky's tourney book)

IMHO Negranu raises in EP bc basically it:1) gives him more information on his opponents hands and 2) basically takes away the "advantage" LP players had on him pre raise.

The guy can simply out play 99.5% of players post flop...abd that means he wants to see a bunch. If he wants to see a flop in EP this raise gives him those two pluses mentioned above.

As for deception...well if you are gonna play Negreanu your gonna have too understand he "could" have any connector at anytime...I dont mean in anyway to say play weak but...its just something yu need to know going in. It is one reason I believe the best way to play a player like that is to reraise an awful lot even with nothing sometimes. See Andy Blochs play against Hanson.

[Punker]

You can do so in online tourneys, but you have to be fanatical about pot size manipulation early in the hand, to allow you to have room to play after the flop.

[meatwad]

I'm sorry, and mind you I still have alot to learn and I would appreciate constructive critiscism, but I don't see how making the pot bigger gives you more room to manouver after the flop.

Making the pot bigger pre-flop makes you have to bet big postflop. This doesn't make it easier on you, especially if all you have is an avg to above avg stack.

Most of the time you will get at least 1, probably 2 callers, at least 1 of which have *position on you*. These players aren't calling with crap, they have cards, even if not great they are probably better than 7 high. And if you don't have the big cards, chances are someone else has them.

I think this play is better used, like Ilya mentioned, when the stacks are really deep. Not for your typical average or slightly above stack in an online multi.

Maybe it might be a good play in the right conditions like if you read the table as really tight and might fold to most UTG raises. If you get called then try to get away or hope they fall for the bluff. Still an easy way to lose a good amount of chips.

[Slow Play Ray]

It all comes down to - once in a while, you just need to catch people off guard. Odds completely aside, sometimes you just wanna flip over the LAST 2 cards anyone expected you to have to take down a monster. Best feeling in poker to me. The catch, and the hard part of course, is to get away from it when it doesn't pan out on the flop.