Key Performance Indicators

[Crix]

For a while now I have noticed how many people on 2+2 are extremely statistic driven when it comes to analyzing their performance and profitability. They rush into purchasing PokerTracker, mostly because they read on here that they must have it. Others get Poker Office or any one of several other programs that break down their performance. After a couple of thousand hands they're back here trolling for some info on what it is they should be looking for.

In the industry I work in, everything revolves around KPI's(Key Performance Indicators). A set of benchmarks that can be used to evaluate no only your performance, but more importantly your areas for improvement

I have decided to attempt to compile a list of KPI's(Key Performance Indicators) that can be used as universal benchmarks for players to aspire/work towards achieving. Not just PT stat's, but a whole range of different areas that you as players would like to know where you stand.

Please, could anyone who feels this is a worthwhile endeavour, contact me either through PM or on this thread with ideas about what you would like to see. Perhaps we could even compile several stats into an overall statistic that extracts information from several areas. Just a thought.

If we get a credible enough set of benchmarks complied, perhaps the good people at 2+2 will let us have it thumb tacked near the top of this section. Imagine how many threads would be eliminated by saving people the effort of having to ask what it is they should be working towards.

[illunious]

I think this is a great idea! It would be a huge help to thousands of people.

It won't be easy though. Just something simple sounding like VPIP for example could be "correct" from 12% (or less?) to 35% (or more?), depending on table size, NL/Limit, Tourney/cash game, stakes (or general looseness of the games), and skill level/playing style of the player.

[wahooriver]

Fascinating concept - I do have a few thoughts.

win % @ showdown - tells me a great deal about my thought process. If this number falls below 50% - then I am making a lot of bad decisions. I think a good goal is 55% - but would like to see more data. (Too high and you are probably too passive - too low is obvious)

Attempt to steal from the button after the flop. In the shorthanded games that I play (1/2 and 5/10 6max mostly) this play is almost standard. I think statistics on post flop stealing (and defending) might be more useful than preflop statistics).

I suspect that % won when seeing the flop (omitting BB limps) might tell us something about preflop hand selection. This could actually give different information than VP$IP - since it self adjusts for table looseness.

A ratio of button VP$IP to UTG VP$IP might (I am guessing here) give some useful information on the player's understanding of position.

Thanks greatly for starting this thread.

[Francis]

Crix,

this is a great idea. Not sure if you're looking for help, but I suspect if you ask, you'll get the collective wisdom of the members of 2+2.

I'm not sure how you're going to organize this. There are so many topics and skills a successful player needs to have. do you want to post an outline and then get feedback?

let us know if there's a way we can help. I'm a poker newbie, but I'm motivated to improve my game, and in my job I do a fair amount of info mapping and analysis. If there is something I can do to help...

Regards
Francis

[PokerHorse]

actually that might be a good subject for an article on the internet magazine. I would compose it and send it to mason for a review.

[Crix]

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Not sure if you're looking for help, but I suspect if you ask, you'll get the collective wisdom of the members of 2+2.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's the combined 2+2 wisdom that we really want to tap into here. I'm putting together a list of areas and items that I feel are relevant and will post that here during the coming week. In the mean time, I would apprecite any thoughts you might have on what areas you would like to see included or excluded for that matter.

I'm currently working on breaking some of the PT stats into different catagories of speciality,i.e. NL, Limit, Shorthanded etc...
To look at any statistics in too broad a spectrum, and then try to apply them to a specific area of poker is very foolish as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for the input thus far and keep it coming.

[bds]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm putting together a list of areas and items that I feel are relevant and will post that here during the coming week.



[/ QUOTE ]

Did you ever post the stats? If so, I can't seem to find them and am interested. I'm not experienced enough to be much help to you in developing them, but would love to see the results.

[Crix]

I starting doing a bit of work on this, then my dad had a heart attack and everything went on the back burners. He's Ok now and lifes starting to reach normality once again.

Suprisingly, I didn't get very much feedback from anyone on this, though I can't ignore the fella who told me that no one's interested in what a 'limey' has to say about poker. Funny thing is, I'm from Freehold, New Jersey. I just happen to live in England for the last 9 years.

Anyway, enough about that. If any one has any ideas on this I would love to hear them. For instance:

What areas of PT info do you think are the most important?
What are the PT stats that you would most like to have comapred to others?
If you play both sort-handed games and full games, how much increase do you expect in your VPIP?
What do you perceive as the most common leaks people can pick up from PT stats?


What would really be great, would be to gather the stats from several winning players at different levels of play. Then use these to create templates of winning players at these different levels. Many may be reluctant to divulge this sort of information. Would you be willing to send your PT 'more detail' page as long as you were given a disclaimer that the info would only ever be used to create average winning profiles to be posted here on 2+2? In order for something like to have any kind of credibility the data has to be quality.

[bds]

I'm glad to hear your Dad is doing better. I'll take a try at answering some of your questions, but I don't consider myself to have nearly the level of experience or knowledge in these areas as many of the posters I read daily.

I consider VP$P, PFR and the aggression factors critical. I also like to know the $ fold to river bet, blind defense and steal percentages, check raise percentages, etc. If you work your way through the posts, you can find good information on what reasonable levels are for each of the stats that are important. But, the questions keep getting asked because it is a very time consuming process to go through all the posts. I think that looking at how your own stats compare to those of winning players is helpful in determining areas in which to focus your attention. The statistics are not a cure all, but they do help you to narrow your focus, one area at a time.

I'd certainly be willing to share my more detail page under the circumstances you explain. I would love to see a comparison of stats level by level and see where the differences fall from one level to another.

[JackWilson]

Sorry to hear about your pops man. Great to hear he's ok. Heart attacks are awful, my family has a history of them.

I checked out the thread and I'm interested, but I'm not sure how much help I would be. I can pretty much only add the obvious, VP$IP, aggression factors, PFR%, W%WSF etc.

Just wanted to encourage you. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]