Chasing a flush draw on the flop

[rocflight]

With blinds at 50/100 and my stack at 5200, I'm involved in a hand with A9d in the big blind with 6 players to the flop, all limped.

Board comes Jd + 2 rags with 2 diamonds. I bet 200 to give the impression of top pair Jack and to set up people once the flush hits. Everyone folds to CO, who goes all in for 1700. Folds to me, is the clear choice to fold here? Also, please comment on other faults in the play.

[Lloyd]

With so many players in the hand, someone is bound to have a J and as long as their kicker isn't horrible they will probably raise you. So, your flop bet is pretty much useless. This is a clear fold. Chasing a flush might be acceptable if you 1) have two over cards in addition to the flush draw or 2) have a pair (like middle or even bottom) in addition to the flush draw. In both of these cases you're pretty much even money or, in the first case, a slight favorite presuming (and you can't always presume this) that if you hit top pair or two pair your hand is good (someone doesn't have a set or straight) AND that your flush draw will win (someone won't have a bigger flush). Lots of "ifs".

[slogger]

Well, your bet has put you in a difficult spot. After your 200 bet and CO's 1700 all-in, there is 2500 in the pot. 1500 buys you two cards. If you lose, you will be left with about 3400, seemingly a very healthy stack still if blinds are only 100/200.

The pot is laying you 5-to-3 or 1.67-to-1.

If you could be sure your opponent didn't have AJ, I think a call would be correct because you'd be getting sufficient odds to draw to your flush and your Ace and losing this pot would by no means cripple you.

Possible holdings and your chances against them:

Against AJ, you're slightly better than a 2-to-1 dog. If you're facing two pair (which, importantly, doesn't seem likely), you're a 2-to-1 dog. If you're up against a set, you're a 3-to-1 dog.

However, if you're facing a pair of jacks without top kicker, you're only about 1.2-to-1. Similar odds if you're facing a pair and a flush draw. You're also an almost 4-to-1 favorite over a weaker flush draw (w/ no pair).

[dmk]

easy call

[rocflight]

Sounds like some conflicting info. I cannot see that a 200 bet would commit me to the pot necessarily. I must add that the table that I was playing at was pretty straight forward with some easily decipherable trick plays (like min raising with high pairs, etc). They haven't shown much aggressive raising post flop, almost never with top pair, ie, preferred to slow play a lot. My plan was to bust some of these guys who over valued their over pair and liked to slow play them. Although now that I think about it, I think the correct play is to check and call any bets if given the correct pot odds.

Now, another question about chasing flush draws. If you're drawing to the nut flush and can for certain put your opponent on a hand that only the flush could beat, should you go beyond 4th street even if the pot is laying great odds?

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, another question about chasing flush draws. If you're drawing to the nut flush and can for certain put your opponent on a hand that only the flush could beat, should you go beyond 4th street even if the pot is laying great odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

as long as you're sure your flush will win if you hit, yes, you can call a bet on the turn.

[SossMan]

Even if his ace is only good 1/2 the time (it's probably good more than that), he has odds to call. Given the same odds for my whole stack, and I might pass. But if I call and miss, I still have a workeable stack.
This is the advantage of having a 50x stack. You can make the marginal (probably slightly +EV) calls and still have a workeable stack to build it back up.

-SossMan

[dmk]

I prefer pushing on the flop to check/calling (especially if you only plan on calling if you get 4:1 on your call?! do you really think villian will bet 150 into this pot?). When the action is back to you, there's 2500 in the pot, 1500 to call = 1.66:1. 9 outs twice = 2:1, 12 outs twice = 1.5:1. I really don't see how you can fold this. It doesn't matter that you only invested 300 so far - the real point is you can win 2500.

Bottom line, I don't mind getting my chips in on this hand because villian is relatively short-stacked. If you happen to lose this hand, you're still around average stack and can build back up. If you win, you're biggie stack - hot.

[MLG]

thats right. welcome to my world of super LAG.

[dmk]

...how does hero lose to a higher flush? he has the A

also, ppl will push here w/ things like KJ/QJ/JT - you have 12 clean outs the majority of the time here. against a larger stack i might say fold (where more chips are at risk), but this is a clear call