Read and understood SSHE , but I can't understand TOP

[Etric]

I read and (I feel)understood Small Stakes Hold 'Em. I've now moved on to reading Theory of Poker, but I do not understand it. All of the 7 card stud, razz, draw lowball, etc examples are confusing me and I don't see how to apply the concepts to hold 'em (or rather, I don't think that they do apply to hold 'em). The few hold 'em examples that are used to illustrate concepts, I feel would be inapplicable to small stakes games. I've only played hold 'em and never played anything greater than 1-2 online and 4-8 B&M. Is it just that you can't out-think opponents who aren't really thinking to begin with? Should I just keep playing and put off TOP for a while?

[BlueBear]

It's certainly a tough read, like a textbook, and unlike other poker books, it's not really easy to breeze through it from cover to cover. Still, reading the TOP is very beneficial in order to have a deeper understanding of the game.

I would suggest reading slower and skipping into the sections that interest you. You don't have to read it from cover to cover. And finally, do not dismiss the examples in the book just because they are non-hold'em games. In improving and developing one's poker game, one needs to have a good "all-rounded" understanding and feel of all the major poker variations.

[happyshark]

The fundamental theorem of poker states that every time you play a hand the same way as if you could see all the cards you win, and every time you play a hand differently than you would have if you could see all the cards, you lose. Additionally, every time an opponent plays a hand the same as if they could see all the cards, you lose, and every time the play differently than they would have if they could see all the cards, you win.

To do this, you need to be able to both read hands and disguise your own.

However, in loose, small stakes games like on Party, opponents don't really know what they are doing. Disguising your hand won't work, and will cost you money as they won't fold to your bluffs. So, you should play more for value, which is where SSH comes into play. That book teaches you how to correctly count outs and partial outs as well as how to adjust the value of your hand according to what position you are in.

You are going to have to put some serious time into understanding the concepts in that book, SSH, and HEPFAP to do well in online play. Because of all this, it takes a certain personality type to be willing to go through with it. Study and think critically about this stuff...I read it many times before starting SSH and it helped me with the big picture. If you don't understand the bigger picture and take the SSH way of playing into tougher, higher limit games, you will get killed, as you don't use deception.

So, the deception parts of TOP aren't directly applicable to you right now, but the the ideas of playing a strong hand weakly and playing a weak hand strongly (bluff/semi-bluffs, check raises, slow playing, etc) are going to be crucial for where you want to end up, namely multi-tabling $15-30.

to repeat, you will need all of those concepts, even if they are not specifically described using Hold'em. There is a description of the games in back...

Happyshark.

[MicroBob]

The concepts are good ones.
but I am with the original poster in that the examples make it difficult.

I think there is some low-ball example in there where some guy has a T-high and the other guy an 8-high or something like that.
Well...since I don't play low-ball I don't really know whether these are great hands or not and the example becomes very difficult to follow.
I think there might 3 rounds of betting and you get to draw on each round...or something like that.

Since it's 2-7 lowball (so the nut-low should be 75432) I understand that an 8-high is a pretty good hand. I also assume that he hurts himself if he draws and 'accidentally' pairs-up.

Anyway, I really don't know the rules of the game, so I certainly don't understand the general strategy that a winning player employs in the game....and the subtleties of the specific hand to partly escape me.


Thankfully, I believe David explains the concept in relation to the hand well enough that I can indeed get some value out of it.
But it would certainly be more meaningful to me if a HE only version of TOP were available (hint hint David!!). But I believe he chose some of the exampes from other games because those concepts are less applicable to hold-em. But I also think some of the examples were of 2-7 lowball and other games simply because those were popularly spread in Calif and LV at the time he wrote the book....and it was generally assumed then that most poker-players had sopme familiarity with these games. Obviously times have changed and 2-7 lowball is not nearly as popular as it once was.

[amulet]

in the beginning you need to reread it several times. the best poker book i ever read. i suppose that if ds upadted it, he would use more hold em examples, given how popular hold em is. but keep reading, and rereading, it will all make sense.

[pastabatman]

I'm just now reading it for the first time. I'm taking a very leisurely pace, a chapter at a time, and feel like I'm getting a lot out of it. I just read the two chapters on the semi-bluff, and for the first time I feel like I have a firm grasp of what it is, and it's value.

Take your time. Unlike most poker books, I don't think one reads TOP quickly to get immediate application to your game. I think instead you read it to deepen your understanding of poker concepts, and to make you think more. I know I sometimes get into auto-play mode, making certain plays without having a good rationale. TOP is helping me with that.

I will say one should have read at least a couple other good books and have a fair amont of playing experience before reading TOP. Unless you have enough playing experience to reflect on, you won't get much out of it. And, as much as I'm getting out of it now, I know there's a lot more to be gleaned in future readings.

Cheers,
Pasta

[cowboyzfan]

It seems to me that the he is teaching universal concepts that apply to all poker games to a greater or lesser extent. The various games discussed as examples further this point.

I think i read in more than one NPA's book that it is a mistake to only be a "hold'em player" and not a "poker player". Or to put it another way, if you are thinking why certain subjects apply more to X game, than game y, you are probably really learning David's lessons.

[ejess]

TOP is very important to me. In my copy the pages 80-110 come twice and I am instead missing the pages from 110-140. I blame all my pokershortcomings on the mysteries I will never get to read in the missing 30 pages of TOP, seriously :-)

Oh and if anybody wonders why the hell I don't replace it, I am saving the copy for three reasons:
1) I can keep blaming any losses on it <--- very important!
2) This misprinted copy must be worth millions in a couple of years, right? Like them stamps you know... +EV?
3) It is so damn worn out that the bookstore would probably laugh if I came back with it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[CORed]

Keep trying. TOP is invaluable in that it teaches you how to think about a poker game. All the sections are good, but, i would especially reccomend that you study and restudy the "Heads up on the end" section. This is very applicable to hold'em (or any other poker game) and is invaluable for improving your river play.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

3) It is so damn worn out that the bookstore would probably laugh if I came back with it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe Mason will replace it free of charge.

Regards,

T