KJo on button first in, more than one mistake?

easypete · #1 12-15-2004, 09:29 AM

SB is sLA-A... about 24/10/2.5 (VPIP/PFR/AF)

I will save my comments for later.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.

River: (12.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

Noodles · #2 12-15-2004, 09:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SB is sLA-A... about 24/10/2.5 (VPIP/PFR/AF)

[/ QUOTE ]
im dont have PT,what is AF?

Anyway i think you played the flop and turn alright,amybe there is a case for checking thru when the A falls on the river or maybe folding to his CR,pretty tight though.

easypete · #3 12-15-2004, 09:59 AM

AF - Post flop aggression factor... <1.5 is fairly passive... >2 is aggressive.

Most of the 2+2ers I see on tables hang around 2-3.5... I'm around 2.8 (at 3/6 ... not enough hands at 5/10 to make a determination).

Noodles · #4 12-15-2004, 10:58 AM

so 2.5 would be aggressive but not maniacal?
then im think he has AK,the river A is scary after all the aggression u have shown would he CR with less than KJ? doubtful but u still have to call this really,pot is large.
you could have checked thru the river but then some would say that is weak.
Maybe check the riv trhu but im probably only saying that now after seeing he CR.
Call the experts on this one [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

7ontheline · #5 12-15-2004, 12:03 PM

I probably play it the same, although the river CR makes me think I'm in trouble, especially with the turn 3-bet to the CR. Depending on your read of the guy, MAYBE don't cap the turn. I pay off on the river though.

spider · #6 12-15-2004, 12:59 PM

Looks OK to me. If turn cap is a mistake, it is a small one since he can't re-raise.

Probably check river, but it's easy to say after seeing the check-raise. For future reference, you are best cutting hands like this off before the check-raise to get more unbiased comments. Your subject line also biases comments by suggesting you lost.

Anyway, on river you are obviously still behind JJ & KK, and an overplayed AA or AK just got there. Still ahead of an overplayed KQ thought that seems fairly unlikely.

suspicious_mind · #7 12-15-2004, 02:29 PM

Hi, first time posting on this forum. No expert but I'll take a shot at this one.

Checking on the river might be tight but I believe it's the right thing to do in this situation. That ace is an ugly card for you that improves alot of your opponents possible holdings. You have to worry about AK, AA, KK, JJ, 88 and 66, also possible are AhJh, Ah8h, (ThQh?) witch is 21 combinations that beat you

You beat KQ, KT, AhQh, AhTh, AhXh, QhJh, K9, K8 and QQ witch is 46 combinations but I believe some of those hands are pretty unlikely especially QQ.

You need to have the best hand twice as often as you are beat because you will most likely get raised if you are and I think you have to call if you are raised with 15 BB's in the pot.
21 hands that beat you and 46 that you beat making you a 2,2:1 favourite to have the best hand suggesting you have a bet.
However if we narrow down the hands you can beat to KQ, KT, K9, AhQh, AhTh and K8s you will now only beat 28 hands making you only a 1,3:1 favourite and you should check.

So whether to bet or not on the river would be totally dependant on your read on how agressive this guy really is both before and after the flop.
More specifically, would he 3 bet preflop with K9-K2? Will he 3 bet the turn with any king and any flush draw?
If he would this would make you a 4,5:1 favourite and you would have a clear bet but change your opponents 3 betting standard to KT preflop and make him more passive with his flush draws and you might even be a dog to have the best hand.

I would probably lean towards a check on the end since most opponents I know wouldn't 3-bet less then about K9s preflop and they wouldn't 3 bet a flush draw on the turn. This guy seems to be agressive though so maybe he would play that way and maybe he could have other hands that I haven't included as possible holdings aswell.

As for the rest of your play I like it. Sometimes I like to just call the turn 3-bet and then raise the river but here I think capping is best, you want to make him pay if he is pushing hard with a draw since he will probably check-fold the river anyway if you just call here. Also some card may fall on the river making your opponent afraid to bet, for example a king may fall and your opponent may check his AA.

easypete · #8 12-15-2004, 03:21 PM

OK... here are my comments on the hand:

Some of this may just be simple, but I'm just starting to play 6-maxes again after getting through 3/6, as I hear they are much softer than the full ring games at 5/10.

Please feel free to rip my comments apart.


[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do this in a full ring, I do this in a 6-max. This, I believe, was straight forward.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I believe my first mistake was made. I searched through a few hands in the forums this morning (after I made this post) and saw a lot of slow-playing top 2-pr on the flop. Is this standard?

In looking at this, should I raise here to see where I am? I don't know if this would accomplish anything. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] If he holds KK, he's going to just call and c/r me on turn... If so, then I can slow down... So, I do learn something, but I didn't see these expected comments in the review, which leads me to believe that slow-playing 2-pr is good heads-up???

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (4.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may have been a little aggressive, but I don't feel that it was much of a mistake. I have top 2-pr. I may be against a set here, but since I hold the K and the J, the chances I'm against KK or JJ is very slim. I'm not concerned about the 6 here.

[ QUOTE ]
River: (12.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK... this is where I believe the big mistake was made (as pointed out), and this is why I posted the hand.

At 2/4, I had to learn to value bet my marginal hands. This made me a bunch of money. I played about 15k hands at 3/6, and I might have missed the memo, but value betting the river is just slightly +EV. Maybe I just ran into some real bad river cards at 3/6, maybe I shouldn't value bet the river as much at 3/6... I don't know. I still feel that most my value bets were good.

Now... 5/10.... I figured that as soon as the A hit, my had became marginal. My opponent checked.... I have top 2 pr, but it just lost to AA, AK, AJ, KK, 88, or JJ. I can be less worried about KK and JJ, since I hold one of each. AA, AK and 88 would have played the turn the same. I'm not thinking AJ would 3-bet the turn.

Hands that I do beat, that may have played like this: KQ, QJs (not likely), and QQ (maybe???). As you can see... my list here is small... therefore, I should have checked behind.

I'm just trying to get my bearings here. I sat at a full ring 5/10 and it wasn't too bad, but it took me over an hour to find a decent table. The 6-maxs seem to be much more abundant w/ loose players, so I'll try this out for a week or two to see if I like it, and if I have any money after that... I may just stay for a while.

Thanks for the input.

Jeff W · #9 12-15-2004, 03:36 PM

Standard. You made 0 mistakes.

Benjamin · #10 12-15-2004, 05:53 PM

Raising the flop would be fine: he'd probably 3-bet w/ a lot of his likely holdings, then you could have smooth called and raised his turn bet. I'd mix it up and not get in the habit of only raising flop or turn.

That ace is definitely trouble on the river. In real time, I'd probably bet. But, I think a check may actually be best there when you really think about likely holdings of this apparently solid opponent.

Regarding your auto-rating him as sL ... I guess you know that in 6-max a VPIP of 24 is right in the money zone and shouldn't be considered semi-loose.

B.