Home game cheater, how should I have handled this?

[Cornell Fiji]

I run a weekly home game at my house. We play .5-1 blind NLHE where most people buy in for $100.

Last night on the first deal a player who has played with us once before had the deck. We always have the person behind the player cut the deck and we use a cut card on the bottom of the deck.

After the deck was cut, the player behind (someone who is very suspicious of cheaters) the dealer was stareing intently at the deck with a disturbed look on his face. I noticed his gaze and asked him what he was looking at but he didnt say anything.

Anyway the hand was dealt and it was raised to the button who reraised to get one caller. Before he dealt the flop he announced 'all in in the dark' and the flop was AT3. The caller folded and the player behind grabbed the deck and folded cards and flipped them up. The dealer had AA and the other guy had QQ, it was aparent that something fishy had occured.

I decided to watch closely whenever this player dealt in the future and there was nothing fishy for the rest of the night.

No accusations were made but I am sure that based on the reaction of the cut off player the dealer knew that we were on to him.

After the night I regretted the fact that I did not throw him out immediately after the first deal. Should I have tossed him? Because I had no proof I decided to just watch him the rest of the night, is this what you would have done? I am thinking about never allowing him back in the game, should I do this or should I just watch him closely and if I ever catch anything again should I ban him?

How would you guys react.

Thanks for the advice.

Steve

[Johnny5]

Hmmm... one player who is very suspicious of cheaters, suspected another player of cheating? [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Seriously, If he was 'staring' at the deck after the cut, he must have seen something, what was it? Did you discuss it with the starer after the fact?

He cut the deck, and was watching the deck closely, so even if the dealer somehow managed to deal himself a pair of aces, and somehow arrange one on the flop (all with a cut card on the bottom), why would he call out "all in in the dark" and draw attention to himself?

You have no proof, nobody saw anything, why would you throw him out?

Personally, i'd let him play, but If you don't like the guy, don't invite him back.

J5

[Lottery Larry]

I would have talked to the cutoff player to find out what he saw. Why did he grab the deck- did he rabbit hunt to see if a Queen was coming on the turn?

Other than that, I think you handled it perfectly. Did the dealer truly not look at his cards, or was he throwing people off with the "all-in, in the dark" comment to disguise his Aces that he peeked at? If the latter, then your statement isn't surely true "it was apparent that something fishy had occured."

If he didn't look and was raising blind preflop as well, I'd have a big red flag for a while when this player is in the game.

I personally do two things to cut down on possible cold-decking:

The previous dealer shuffles the deck thoroughly, the next person-to-deal- the SB on the current hand- gets the deck, cuts it and deals on his turn.

I like to cut the deck in 3 or four piles and eliminate the bottom and top cards during the pickup. Saw it detailed on UPF i think.

[warewulf]

Unless you're normally very paranoid, I would go with your gut instinct on this one. How many times has the possible cheater played with you? Remember any freak hands he was in in the past? Anyone know him? Definitely talk to the guy that spotted him, ask what he saw.

[Cornell Fiji]

Clarifications:
When the suspected cheater said 'all-in in the dark' me meant that he had looked at his cards but was going all in regardless of the flop.

The suspicious cut off did rabbit hunt and there was no queen coming out however two other people were dealt queens which seemed somewhat suspicious.


I talked to the cut off after the suspected cheater left and he said that he thought he saw something fishy with the cards after they were cut. He said that the dealer fumbled with the cards and then quickly snapped them together and he commented that 'the dealer has really quick hands.'

Ordinarily I would not think something of it but before the hand was played out i KNEW that the cut off thought that he had seen something fishy with the deck and then when the dealer had AA with an A on the flop to the other guys QQ with queens in two other peoples hands... something wasn't kosher.


I am actually supprised that the replies so far were that I did the right thing because after the game I was regretting not throwing him out (although to do this without substantial evidence, -- was this substantial evidence? -- would be very wrong)

[joyride]

I was unsure of his cheating by reading your original post, but by reading this one, it almost sounds like he wanted one of the other queens to fall on the flop, but was is a terrible cheat and misplaced it in the deck. If he was trying to cheat, the first thing he needs to do is get better at it, and then find a different game to play in, because now everybody at your place will be watching him like a hawk.

[grandgnu]

I've seen someone deal the Ace of Spades from the bottom of the deck even with a cut card used and kept on the bottom.

You should enforce a rule where not only do you cut the deck, but the deck MUST remain on the table while the cards are dealt. This way they can't get at any of the bottom cards to cheat.

The use of a dealer shoe would also work. Good luck!

[ddss6_99]

It's funny you bring this up because I'm having the same problem with my usual game. There's this one player that we all suspect of cheating, but nobody can prove it with hard evidence. The amount of freaky hands he has are ridiculous. EX-1. Friendly home game, i forget what was going on, but he was the dealer and we were all distracted by something, might have been the tv. Nobody was watching him shuffle the deck because of this. He called Omaha for his game (dealer's choice) so to make a long story short, my full house gets cracked by his AAKK double suited full house. Wierd, but w/e.
EX-2 This happened today. His deal again in the friendly home game, we're all just talking and stuff while we play, nobody really watching intently for cheating or anything. Same guy calls Omaha again for his game( no big deal, that's his favorite game). I get dealt KKxx and the flop comes down KxA, I was already suspicious from the beggining. The turn brought another A and he bet out. I said that there was something shady about this hand and mucked my Kings over Aces face up, and wouldn't you know it, the suspect turns over AA for quad aces. Now these are just a few hands, but this kind of stuff happens regularly. I've never seen someone have so many pocket pairs that hit in my life, but only on his deal. Some people who aren't even in my home game have given me the idea that he's cheating. One guy I was talking to about our game told me about how the guy we suspect of cheating showed him some card trick where he brings a certain card to the top of the deck "magically". Another guy overheard a couple friends and I talk about our game and said "Oh man you guys play poker with xxxx, you're crazy he's a cheater. He showed me how once." When we confronted the suspected cheater about this he gave us some story about how it was when he was permenant dealer and wasn't even in the game and he was just fooling around looking at the cards before they came and signaling a player. We tell him to stop cheating every time, but mostly in a joking manner. We don't want to really be harsh because he's a friend of ours, but it's really starting to make me mad. I'm wondering what the best course of action would be. Every time we confront him about it, he adamently denys cheating.

[Lottery Larry]

WHY DO YOU LET THE DEALER SHUFFLE HIS OWN DECK?

Problem solved.

[Lottery Larry]

"where not only do you cut the deck, but the deck MUST remain on the table while the cards are dealt"

Have you ever tried to deal cards out this way? If it's THAT bad, it's time to break up your game.